Vedic clothes (dhoti, sari) in history and present time, with focus on ISKCON update: May 28, 2021 This is a compilation of references and writings which shed light on this subject. The idea that sari and dhoti are of Muslim origin is refuted. - references: Dhoti in Gupta dynasty (4-6th century CE, i.e. preislamic): Obv: King standing in centre, wearing dhoti none of the usual jewelry, hair tied top of his head. King stands in tribhanga stance, left hand rests on a bow and the right hand grasps an arrow. A garuda dhvaja is behind his right arm. His name Skanda appears between the bow string and his left leg Skanda gupta, Gold dinar, Ca.455-480-The Skanda Collection, University of Michigan http://ignca.nic.in/asp/showbig.asp?projid=ac28 also seen at: http://www.columbia.edu/itc/mealac/pritchett/00routesdata/0400_0499/lateguptacoins/lateguptacoins.html also mentioned at: http://www.forumancientcoins.com/india/guptas/gupta_coinage.html academic book: Jill Condra - The Greenwood Encyclopedia Of Clothing Through World History: Prehistory To 1500 CE (Greenwood Publishing Group) ZrIla RUpa GosvAmI - BhaktirasAmRtasindhu 2.1.350-1: catuSkam – catuSkaM kaJcukoSNISa-tunda-bandhAntarIyakam ||350|| The four-piece outfit refers to shirt, turban, sash and lower garment. yathA – smerAsyaH parihita-pATalAmbara-zrIz channAGgaH puraTa-rucoru-kaJcukena | uSNISaM dadhad aruNaM dhaTIM ca citrAm kaMsArir vahati mahotsave mudaM naH ||351|| The enemy of KaMsa, smiling in great joy, and wearing a pink dhoti [dhaTIM], orange turban, an excellent vest of shining gold, and multi-color sash, creates joy in us. ZrIla KRSNadAsa KavirAja GosvAmI - Caitanya caritAmRta 2.8.168: lAvaNyAmRta-dhArAya tad-upari snAna nija-lajjA-zyAma-paTTasATi-paridhAna After Her midday bath, RAdhArANI takes another bath in the nectar of bodily luster, and She puts on the garment of shyness, which is Her black silk sari [paTTa sATi]. ZrIla Narottama dAsa ThAkura - PremabhakticandrikA, song 8, zloka 3: anurAge rakta sArI, nIlapaTTa manohArI Their red sArIs represent intense hankering for KRSNa, and their silken deep-blue outer-garments simply steal away the mind. ZrIla VizvanAtha CakravartI ThAkura - RAdhikA DhyAnAmRta 24: priyAnaGga-keli-bharaikanta-vaTI- paTIva sphuraty aJcita paTTa-zaTI vicitrantarIyopari zrI-bhareNa kSipantI navendIvarAbhAmbarena Her silk sari [paTTa-zaTI] is like a cottage that houses Her amorous pastimes with Her beloved. Over Her colorful sari She places a very beautiful shawl splendid as a blue lotus. kibA se adbhuta dui kamala-nayana kibA se adbhuta zobhe trikaccha-vasana How wonderful were His two lotus eyes! And how wonderful was the way He wore His dhoti! (CBh 1.8.187) GauDIya BhAzya commentary by BhaktisiddhAnta SarasvatI ThAkura: The word trikaccha refers to a style in which elder Bengalis wear their dhotis. When the left end of a dhoti is taken between the legs and tucked in at the back it is called kAchA. When the other end is tucked in at the navel it is called koGcA. When the other end of this koGcA is also tucked in at the navel it is called trikaccha. keha vA dhariyA koGcA zikdAra-sthAne laiyA yAya mahA-krodhe dhariyA deoyAne Sometimes someone caught the Lord by His dhoti and took Him to the local Moslem authority to register a complaint. (CBh 1.15.25) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhoti https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sari https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mundum_neryathum Chadar could come from 'chadana' (Manu 3.59, 9.202). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chadar more sastra references: http://madangopal.blogspot.com/2012/03/vaishnava-dress.html https://www.radha.name/news/opinion/term-saree-in-vedic-literature http://www.radha.name/news/general-news/term-dhoti-in-the-vedas Manu samhita 2 gives a general overview: 41. Let students, according to the order (of their castes), wear (as upper dresses) the skins of black antelopes, spotted deer, and he-goats, and (lower garments) made of hemp, flax or wool. 42. The girdle of a Brahmana shall consist of a of a triple cord of Munga grass, smooth and soft; (that) of a Kshatriya, of a bowstring, made of Murva fibres; (that) of a Vaisya, of hempen threads. 43. If Munga grass (and so forth) be not procurable, (the girdles) may be made of Kusa, Asmantaka, and Balbaga (fibres), with a single threefold knot, or with three or five (knots according to the custom of the family). 44. The sacrificial string of a Brahmana shall be made of cotton, (shall be) twisted to the right, (and consist) of three threads, that of a Kshatriya of hempen threads, (and) that of a Vaisya of woollen threads. 45. A Brahmana shall (carry), according to the sacred law, a staff of Bilva or Palasa; a Kshatriya, of Vata or Khadira; (and) a Vaisya, of Pilu or Udumbara. 46. The staff of a Brahmana shall be made of such length as to reach the end of his hair; that of a Kshatriya, to reach his forehead; (and) that of a Vaisya, to reach (the tip of his) nose. 47. Let all the staves be straight, without a blemish, handsome to look at, not likely to terrify men, with their bark perfect, unhurt by fire. - writings and comments: Shyamasundara dasa ACBSP: There has been some discussion about trying to ascertain whether some variation of dhotis and saris is Vedic. Some opine on the absence of the word dhoti or sari from Monier-Monier William's Sanskrit dictionary that there is no proof that they are Vedic and hence they are optional wear items according to the taste of the practitioner. (At a later date it may be prudent to discuss if MMW dictionary is free from fault and perfect.) The following is not a rigorous treatment of the subject of the role of revelation and direct perception of the Truth but rather an adumbration of the type(s) of arguments that could be made to support the concept that dhotis and saris are Vedic: 1) It is well known that Srila Prabhupada actually directly saw Lord Krsna. There is the famous instance where a reporter asked Srila Prabhupada if he has seen Lord Krsna. Rameshvara Prabhu intercedes and tries to explain how you can see Krsna as the taste in water and other indirect ways. Srila Prabhupada stops him and affirms that he has indeed seen Lord Krsna directly. If somebody is energetic and has the time they can find the transcript to that conversation. 2) Another instance was told to me by my God brother Bahusira Prabhu who was doing research for the Prabhupada biography in India in 1978-80. He told me of various amazing incidents where people who knew Srila Prabhupada in his pre-ISKCON days recounted many wondrous events of Srila Prabhupada's direct contact with Lord Krsna. He told me that it was common knowledge in the Gaudiya Matha that Lord Krsna had personally given Srila Prabhupada a flower garland. I may have the details wrong but that is the gist, Bahusira Prabhu, who lives in the Bay area can be contacted for exact details. 3) In the following transcript Srila Prabhupada affirms that in Vaikuntha Visnu is not wearing coat and pants but rather he wears a dhoti: Hamsaduta: Someone has said that the dhoti, the dhoti that the brahmacaris wear, is the dress that's worn in Vaikuntha. Is that correct? Prabhupada: Just see Visnu. He has no coat-pant. Here is Visnu. Or Krsna, He has no dress. He is also bare body. Only Radharani is covered. In India also, still, the covering of the body is only for woman, but men, this, practically one dhoti is sufficient. Sometimes langota, the underwear. Langota, underwear. What is that? Conversation Including Srimad-Bhagavatam 1.2.1-34 Recitation & Explanation April 1, 1969, San Francisco There are other references were Srila Prabhupada has said that he has seen Lord Krsna. 4) Srila Prabhupada personally supervised the paintings that went into his books. He gave detailed instructions to the artists on how to paint Lord Krsna and Lord Balarama and all the other personalities described in his books because he knew how They looked not just from scriptural description but from personal direct perception of the Supreme Personality of Godhead through his transcendental vision. This also included approval for how the apparel of the different personalities was to be depicted. He called these paintings "windows into the spiritual world." Hence the painting in His books actually correctly depicted how Lord Krsna and others were dressed. 5) Our purva acarya Srila Sanatana Goswami personally saw Srimati Radharani on many occasions: "As time passed, however, a similar incident occurred, one which Raghunath Das could not ignore. As he sat absorbed in meditation, the devotees became worried for his life as he spent hour after hour, not moving, in the blazing midday sun. At that time, it is said, Radharani Herself came to that spot, standing behind Her great devotee Raghu, and She used Her covering cloth to shield him from the hot rays of the sun. In due course, Sanatan Goswami again happened upon the scene and noticed that Shrimati Radharani was perspiring while trying to protect Her faithful devotee. Her clothes were fully drenched in Her transcendental sweat while She performed the loving austerity on behalf of Raghunath Das. Turning to Sanatan, Shrimati Radharani smiled and then left." The Six Goswamis of Vrindavan - 1/ Raghunath Das Goswami Satyaraja dasa 6) We are reminded that Sanatana Goswami and the other Goswamis are Manjaris, personal associates of Sri Sri Radha-Krsna. Hence, they personally see how Lord Krsna is dressed. In his Srimad Bhagavatamarta 1.7.19-20, which I would like to remind readers is a revealed scripture-not a work of fiction, Sanatana Goswami describes Lord Krsna thusly: ksipram svasyanujasyapi sammarjya vadanambujam vastrodarantare vamsim srnga-vetre ca hastayoh kanthe kadamba-malam ca barhapidam ca murdhani navam gunjavatamsam ca karnayor nidadhe sanaih SYNONYMS ksipram-quickly; svasya-His own; anu-jasya-His younger brother's; api-and; sammarjya-wiping clean; vadana-ambujam-the lotus faces; vastra-of His garment; udara-antare-in the waist; vamsim-a flute; srnga-a buffalo horn; vetre-a stick; ca-and; hastayoh-in His hands; kanthe-around the neck; kadamba-malam-a garland of kadamba flowers; ca-and; barha-apidam-a peacock-feather ornament; ca-and; murdhani-on the head; navam-new; gunja-avatamsam-rings of gunja berries; ca-and; karnayoh-on the ears; nidadhe-placed; sanaih-gradually. TRANSLATION Balarama quickly cleaned His own lotus face and that of His younger brother. Then He gently placed a flute in the waist of Krsna's dhoti, a buffalo horn and stick in Krsna's hands, a garland of kadamba flowers around His neck, a peacock-feather ornament on His head, and newly fashioned rings of gunja berries on His ears. Now the author has not specifically said "dhoti" just vastra or cloth. But, the point again is that Santana Goswami saw how the Lord was dressed. That being the case, Santana Goswami and others in his circle were intimately aware of how the Lord and his associates dressed. For example see the life of Srinivasa Thakura (quoted at end): The point being that in their siddhasvarupas exalted personalities in our sampradaya-our very own acaryas-have directly seen the transcendental pastimes and activities of Radha and Krsna. And thus also saw Their transcendental clothing. ("At this same time, Radharani finished her water sports, and she began to dress in her beautiful dark blue sari." See end for full quote.) 7) I posit that these personalities who have directly seen the wearing apparel of the Lord and His associates would dress their own personal Deities in the very same way because they would want to offer to the Lord the same type of clothing that He has chosen to wear of His own accord and thus assume that such clothing is the kind that the Lord and His associates like. The devotee always wants to offer the Lord that which pleases the Lord. 8) Because devotees like the Six Goswamis only want to be reminded of the Lord hence they would also wear in the material world similar type of dress seen in the spiritual world because such dress would remind them of the Lord and His pastimes. 9) Why is it that today many Indians and the rest of the world imitate the dress of the Mllechas and Yavanas-Europeans and Americans? Because it is viewed as the way the dominant culture dresses so they want to imitate what they have SEEN the dominant culture wear. 10) In the sastras like Ramayana, Bhagavatam, Mahabhrata there are many descriptions of interactions between the Devas, Lord Visnu, Rakshasa, etc with human society. Thus humans directly saw how personalities on higher planets behaved and dressed. And just like modern people who imitate the dress of what is considered the dominant culture I posit that humans then also imitated the dress and fashions of the Devas who in turn were imitating the fashions of Lord Visnu. 11) It is not an anthropomorphic imposition on the Deity but rather humans imitate what is literally the "higher" fashion. 12) So in the distant past humans saw how celestials dressed and imitated that. And, in more recent times our Acaryas directly saw the divine clothing of the Deities. And our own Spiritual master has also said that Lord Visnu wears a dhoti. 13) What to speak of what the Lord wore in previous yugas, what did the Yuga Avatara, Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu wear in His recent pastimes? Dhoti according to the ashrama He occupied. Is not Lord Caitanya, the Veda-purusa, Vedic? He is the personification of the Vedic civilization. "Actually, the glowworms cannot give any light in the darkness of night. As clouds sometimes clear, even in the rainy season, and sometimes the moon, stars and sun become visible, so even in this Kali-yuga there are sometimes advantages. For example, sometimes Lord Caitanya's Vedic movement of distributing the chanting of the Hare Krsna mantra is heard. People seriously eager to find real light should take advantage of this movement instead of looking toward the light of mental speculators and atheists." Krsna Book CHAPTER TWENTY, Description of Autumn We do not have to look in the dictionary to find out what was worn in Vedic culture, one need only look to Lord Caitanya and His associates and observe how They were dressed, how did They dress Their Deities, and how did Their followers dress. If I have to decide between what Lord Caitanya and His sangha past and present wore/wear and the theory that dhotis and saris are not Vedic I will choose what Lord Caitanya chose as His opinion is the last word on Vedic civilization. Your humble servant, Shyamasundara Dasa References: From life of Srivasa Thakura quoted from, Vaisnava Saints - Satyaraja dasa "While in Vishnupur, Shrinivas showed the highest level of Krishna consciousness. He was an exemplary Goshthyanandi [a preacher], as is evidenced by his travelling sankirtan party and by his enthusiasm to spread the bonafide message of the Bhagavatam to all who would listen. He was also an excellent Bhajananandi [an inner worshipper], as is seen by his absorption in Manjari-bhava, or his inner meditation on his ontological form as a maidservant of Shrimati Radharani. "In this connection, one interesting story, among many others, is related in all of Shrinivas's authorized biographies: Once, while in Vana Vishnupur, Shrinivas fell into trance while meditating on his form as Mani Manjari in the spiritual realm. As he fixed his mind on Radharani's water sports in Vrindavan, he relished watching her splash about in the Yamuna with Krishna and her intimate gopi friends. But in the middle of her playful dealings, her nose-ornament (besara) fell into the dark blue waters, and only Rupa Manjari noticed that it had fallen from her moon-like face. At this point, Rupa Manjari winked at Guna Manjari [Gopal Bhatta Goswami] who, knowing the mind of Shri Rupa, dove in to look for the lost nose-ring. Guna Manjari searched the transparent waters in vain, however, because the blessed ornament could not be found. Guna Manjari had even engaged Mani Manjari [Shrinivas himself] in the search, but to no avail. "Shrinivas continued his meditation on this pastime, day and night, for three days without a break. However, in the external world, his wives were now beside themselves with grief: "Will Shrinivas ever come out of this meditative trance? Is he dead?" His body had become stiff and his breathing was slight. His wives started to cry out loud. Soon the king came running, and when he observed Shrinivas's condition, he too was deeply concerned: "The body requires food. If the Acharya does not soon return to our plane of existence, he may permanently leave us." Nonetheless, the king consoled himself and Shrinivas's wives when the court physicians examined Shrinivas's body-it was still in a healthy state. But how long can even the healthiest man exist without food? "Of course, it might be prudent to note at this point that such states of exalted consciousness are rare, and one should not attempt to imitate them. According to the Vedic tradition, those who are in the neophyte and intermediate stages of devotional service (bhakti-yoga) should concentrate on required viddhi-sadhana under the direction of a bonafide spiritual master, and it is by this method that one can gradually attain the higher levels of bhava and prema as exhibited by Shrinivas Acharya. "Ramchandra Kaviraj To The Rescue Ishvari, Shrinivas's first wife, thought of Ramchandra Kaviraj. If anyone could understand Shrinivas's state and bring him out of it, it was Ramchandra. She expressed these thoughts to the king, who quickly sent for Shrinivas's most intimate disciple. After some time, Ramchandra arrived, and seeing the face of his lord and master, he assured everyone: "Do not fear, Shrinivas Acharya is in a deep state of samadhi. He will soon return to you." "Ramchandra, who was also the embodiment of Mani Manjari (although he is more commonly known as Karuna Manjari), sat next to Shrinivas in a meditative trance. In this state, he appeared at the Yamuna where Shrinivas, as Mani Manjari, was still looking for Radharani's nose-ring. Ramchandra, in his own ontological form as Mani Manjari's other self, jumped in the river and helped Shrinivas find the ornament, which was hidden under a lotus leaf. Giving the nose-ring to Mani Manjari [Shrinivas], Ramchandra was happy to assist his guru in this confidential way. "At this same time, Radharani finished her water sports, and she began to dress in her beautiful dark blue sari. Her intimate gopi friends enthusiastically assisted her, and when there was one last ornament to place on her person-the nose-ring-Guna Manjari confidently looked to Mani Manjari who, in perfect timing, came out from the Yamuna and delivered the desired apparel. The Meditation Is Complete As the finishing touch was placed on Radhika's body, Krishna came to scurry her off into the forests of Vrindavan. The gopis and manjaris watched on in disbelief, mesmerized by the unparalleled beauty that emanated from the Divine Couple. The scene engulfed them with intense love, and their bodies showed symptoms of spiritual ecstasy. Just then, Ramchandra Kaviraj broke his meditation, as did Shrinivas. They turned to look at each other, once again, in the external world. Laughing like madmen, they embraced and fell to the floor, their eyes emitting tears of love. In this series of four quotes we see Srila Prabhupada discuss wearing vaisnava dress with different kinds of people. Some are (1) karmis, some are quasi-devotees like (2) Siddha Svarupa and then there is Srila Prabhupada's giving instruction on how new devotees should dress in Vrndavana (3) and most importantly his presentation during Srimad Bhagavatam to initiated devotees (4). It is clear, at least to me, that when Srila Prabhupada says to karmis that dhotis are optional it is obviously a preaching tactic to encourage them. They do not have to wear dhotis as he explains to Siddha Swarupa when an uniatiated devotee comes to the temple. But once one is initiated there is a higher standard to be followed as part of being a disciple and surrender to the guru and his instructions. And in the Bhagavatam Class Srila Prabhupada explains that absolute necessity of wearing Vaisnava dress as being great mercy on the fallen souls because: "The chanting of Hare Krsna is not so easy. So many people come here, but when there is chanting, they do not chant because it is not easy. Yaj-jihvagre nama tubhyam. In the sastra it is said, aho bata sva-pacato 'pi gariyan yaj-jihvagre nama tubhyam. Anyone who is chanting Hare Krsna, jihvagre, with the tongue, even if he is born in a family of dog-eaters he is glorious. He is glorious. Yaj-jihvagre nama tubhyam. So we give this chance. As soon as he chants Hare Krsna, immediately he becomes glorious. Immediately become glorious." Scroll down to see the whole quote. Everyone can draw their own conclusions. 1) To non-devotees Srila Prabhupada say that wearing dhoti "robes" and shaved head "is convenient but not necessary": Interviewer: What is the purpose of the robes and having your head shaved? Prabhupada: That is not very difficult to understand. Just like you dress in a certain way, I dress in certain way. So we have got this dressing system in our Krsna consciousness movement, and this is taken from Vedic literature. A brahmacari should dress like that. And that is very economical. Our dress is saffron dress. It does not become dirty very quickly, and we... [break] This dress is not very important thing, but when one is initiated, he accepts the regulations which I give them. So it is not that if you do not come in that dress in our temple you will not understand our philosophy. That is not... We don't mean that. But it is convenient. But anyone who does not want to change this dress, that does not matter. We don't insist. These brahmacaris, they voluntarily change. Otherwise there are many students, just like we have got two, three students, they are working. They come just like ordinary American gentlemen. So there is no objection in that way. Dress is not very important thing. Interview - February 1, 1968, Los Angeles 2) In this text it is clear (to me) that Srila Prabhupada wanted even new devotees to be dressed as Vaisnavas. They had a three day time limit to shave up and adopt Vaisnava dress or get out. Prabhupada: ...our guest. Because somebody is guest, paying guest, therefore we shall admit anyone in any kind of dress? Aksayananda: No. Gopala Krsna: We don't admit people who look like hippies or something. Aksayananda: That girl, I told her she had to wear a sari. And she did for some time, but then again she stopped. Prabhupada: That I am speaking, that sa yadi kriyate raja. Aksayananda: Due to habit. Prabhupada: Sakrn nasnuta pahanam (?) That is the difficulty. It will be very bad example. People will think... They already thinking that "These are all hippies." That will minimize the prestige of the temple. [break] Jaipuria House they do not allow any hippies. You know that? Gopala Krsna: Jaipuria does not allow any foreigners at all. They don't allow any foreigners at all, even if somebody is decently dressed. Aksayananda: One boy came a couple of weeks ago. He had long hair. But the next day he came back and shaved up. He's a devotee now. He's doing nicely. Prabhupada: That's nice. Aksayananda: So they will still come. They can become devotees. It's all right then. Prabhupada: Hare Krsna. [break] Aksayananda: ...doing, Srila Prabhupada. If they come and they have long hair but if there's a chance they might become devotees, I tell them they must tie up their hair in such a way that you cannot see it. Prabhupada: That's all right. If many comes like that to become devotee, then it becomes a devotee place, er, hippie place. You give them chance to become a devotee. In the meantime, it will be known as a hippie resort. Harikesa: That's always been a problem here. Prabhupada: It is no problem. You can allow for three days only. If he does not change his habit, then he must go. Aksayananda: Yes. all right. [break] Prabhupada: ...was in the beginning allowing, but they saw some disadvantage. Therefore they have stopped. [break] ...our Dhananjaya? Gopala Krsna: He's sick. Prabhupada: Every morning he is sick. Harikesa: He had typhoid. Prabhupada: Typhoid? Harikesa: Yes. (end) Morning Walk - December 3, 1975, Vrndavana 3) Here Srila Prabhupada says that after initiation one should adopt vaisnava dress and especially be shaved up. But before that there is no necessity: Siddha-svarupa: There are a lot of devotees here who follow the principles but cannot completely... [break] ...shaved up, and they still wear karmi clothes pretty much, but they're clean, they're devotees, and in this way they're attracting many of the local people, because they're able to relate to them. Prabhupada: So that... Siddha-svarupa: They're not lowering your standard. Prabhupada: No, naturally, but when they are initiated they must shave. They must keep to the standard. If one becomes initiated and he still keeps the hippie form, that does not look nice. Do you think that is all right? No, that is not good. So long they are coming as outsider, joining kirtana, they may have their own dress, it doesn't matter. They are coming to kirtana, that must be (indistinct). But when they are to be initiated, they must follow the rules and regulations given by the spiritual master. Siddha-svarupa: So... Prabhupada: Otherwise they should not be initiated. It is simple thing. Let them go on chanting, taking prasadam; we have no (indistinct). But when they are to be initiated, they must follow. This is the clear (indistinct). If you don't want to disturb them, let them come, chant, dance, take prasadam We have no objection. But don't recommend them for initiation unless he agrees to the rules and regulations given by the spiritual master. Where is the wrong? Where is the difficulty? You can talk with him like that. Siddha-svarupa: I think they only feel that because... Prabhupada: No feeling, if you..., when you are surrendering to the spiritual... Sisyas te 'ham sadhi mam prapannam [BG 2.7]. Find out this verse. Tad viddhi pranipatena pariprasnena sevaya. Room Conversation with Siddha-svarupa - May 3, 1976, Honolulu 4) Here Srila Prabhupada is preaching to the choir. He doesn't say it is optional or that it is convenient. No he says that it is necessary And he castigates as foolish rascals those who say "What is the necessity of this that?" That is what is the necessity of wearing vaisnava dress. "Then preksaniya, "He is worth seeing." We are accustomed to see so many things. That is our bondage. Aksnoh phalam. If by the eyes you see the Deity, the Vaisnavas... The Vaisnavas, with tilaka, with kunti, with chanting beads, as soon as you see... And practically you know. As soon as they see these Hare Krsna movement people, they also chant, "Hare Krsna," giving a chance to the others. The dress is also required. You should be always equipped with tilaka, kunti, and sikha, sutra. Then, as soon as a common man sees, "Oh, here is a Hare Krsna man. Hare Krsna," he'll chant. Automatically you give a chance to chant Hare Krsna. "So this is required. The foolish rascals, they say that "What is the necessity of this, that?" No. This is necessity. You must always remain dressed like a Vaisnava. That is necessity. So preksaniya: "is very beautiful to see." Otherwise how they became impressed? Immediately they become so pious that they chant Hare Krsna. The chanting of Hare Krsna is not so easy. So many people come here, but when there is chanting, they do not chant because it is not easy. Yaj-jihvagre nama tubhyam. In the sastra it is said, aho bata sva-pacato 'pi gariyan yaj-jihvagre nama tubhyam. Anyone who is chanting Hare Krsna, jihvagre, with the tongue, even if he is born in a family of dog-eaters he is glorious. He is glorious. Yaj-jihvagre nama tubhyam. So we give this chance. As soon as he chants Hare Krsna, immediately he becomes glorious. Immediately become glorious. Aho bata sva-pacato 'pi gariyan yaj-jihvagre na..., tepus tapas te [SB 3.33.7]. That means in his previous life he has already performed many sacrifices. Therefore he has got this qualification of chanting Hare Krsna. Tepus tapas te jihuvuh sasnur arya [SB 3.33.7]. They are really Arya, Aryan, who is chanting Hare Krsna. Srimad-Bhagavatam 3.28.19 - Nairobi, October 29, 1975 And for the record I just didn't do a search of the VedaBase. I have actually listened to ALL of Srila Prabhupada tapes twice and am on my 3rd listen. I keep notes of any interesting things I hear and keep them in the tape folder. I don't know what I will do now that I am switching over to MP3s. Guess just keep a notebook. -- Today I would like to look at the topic from a different angle. That being why is it that dhoti is so commonly worn by Vaisnavas and those who follow Vedic culture in India. Is there some necessary or compelling reason to do so? Just as sometime there is a compelling reason not to wear dhoti for example when preaching in the former USSR. Is there a compelling reason for wearing dhoti and sari? Having been a pujari for many years as well as knowing many arcakas I recalled that it is forbidden to wear any sewn cloth when worshipping the Deity hence that would rule out Western dress for Deity worship or Yajna. In Treta Yuga Yajna was the yuga Dharma and Dvapara yuga Deity worship the yuga dharma. While in Kali it is sankirtana. Still archana is still very important for our purification and that is why Srila Prabhupada introduced it is as a major thing in ISKCON and personally installed many Deities. Since Brahmanas and Vaisnavas are supposed to regularly worship the Deity daily, and make offering several times a day they would perforce be wearing unsewn cloth as any other is not allowed in the presence of the Deity. As I was writing this it struck me that if unsewn cloth is verboten in the presence of the Deity in His murti form could we safely extrapolate that it would also not be found among the Lords personal associates in Vaikuntha or Goloka since there is no difference between the two. Anyway just a thought. In any case I wrote to several friends who are purohitas and arcakas and asked: "Do you have any sastra vidhi regarding the wearing of dhoti and sari in Vedic culture? What about wearing sewn cloth? Why is it forbidden on the altar? Is there a pramana against wearing sown cloth on altar or during yajna?" The following is the response of one of them. He quotes a lot from Pancaratra Pradipika but unfortunately that book though based on Pancaratra agama doesn't give any source for what they say. He does have other pramanas however from the puranas. I have written to another friend who is from one of the archaka families in Sri Rrangam and requested him to find out from his pandita friends what the pancaratra agamas say about what dress should be worn and why. Some of the texts have diacritics that are best viewed in a font like Balarama. Your humble servant, Shyamasundara Dasa Excerpt: "When one takes initiation it is symbolic of the panch-samskara rites to give up our previous ways and misconceptions, we mark the body with tilak and wear dhoti to symbolise externally of the inner changes we have begun and plan to develop. It is very important how we see ourselves and how others see us. If we are weak and not convinced that we are spiritual by nature and that we are following a system that can give us pure love of God, and can share that with others, sure we hide in non-devotional dress. However, if we follow the good example of Srila Prabhupad and advertise our position as a devotee by wearing devotional dress it will help our own self-image as well as assist others in their identification where to find Krishna - in a Krishna conscious person." His full (unedited) answer follows: First thing that comes to mind is the entire process of Panchanga vidhi; abhigamanam, upadan, yoga, ijya, swadhyaya Abhigamanam includes wearing the appropriate dress for devotional activities according to one's ashram, gender etc This is mentioned in Pancharatra pradipa also. Upadanam means to collect the proper items in puja. Yoga refers to communing with the Lord's desire and thus becoming an instrument for puja. Ijya is the actual worship proper which as we will mention in a few minutes would also imbibe the essence of the first whereby one doesn't wear sewn cloth, and wears langata or kaupin underwear. For a pujari the section refered to as swadhyaya is very important as it specifically means to put on festivals, sing the glories of the Lord and share those glories with others, to preach in other words - so going "incognito" in muffti doesn't really carry that does it. Pancharatra Pradipa also gives the following guide to cloth: Unclean and Improper Cloth (PP 1.7 vastra paridhanam) A devotee should not wear dirty cloth, especially when cooking or worshiping the Deity. Used cloth that has not been washed and dried again is considered unclean. Cloth worn while sleeping, passing urine or stool, or having sex is unclean. Cloth that touches anything impure, such as wine, meat, blood, a dead body, or a woman in her menstrual period, is also contaminated. Cloth washed by a public laundry service and cloth that, though washed, has become stale are also unclean and therefore unfit to wear during Deity worship. While worshiping the Deity, you should not wear the following types of cloth: brightly-colored cloth (for men), damp cloth, cloth that is too long or too short to be worn properly, stitched or sewn cloth (for men), torn cloth, oil- or dirt-stained cloth, soiled cloth, burnt cloth, or cloth chewed by animals or insects. However, you may wear silk many times before washing it, provided it has not contacted anything impure or been worn in impure places. Unbleached, raw matkA (ahiMsa) silk is the best for pUjA. Sheep's wool is said to be always pure, but still, you should not wear ordinary woolen cloth when worshiping the Deity, because wool particles may fall on the Deity's paraphernalia. However, you may wear wool cloth if it is very fine, "nonshedding" wool, in which case you should reserve these items only for pUjA. Synthetic cloth should not be worn when worshiping the Deity. Also in Chaitanya Charitamrita Antya-lila 12:37 it says: petangi-gaya kare dandavat-namaskara govinda kahe,-`srikanta, age petangi utara' SYNONYMS petangi-shirt and coat; gaya-on the body; kare-performs; dandavat-namaskara-offering of obeisances; govinda kahe-Govinda said; srikanta-my dear Srikanta; age-first; petangi utara-take off your shirt and coat. TRANSLATION When Srikanta offered obeisances to the Lord, he was still wearing his shirt and coat. Therefore Govinda told him, "My dear Srikanta, first take off these garments." PURPORT One is forbidden to enter the Deity room or offer anything to the Deity while wearing a shirt or coat. In the tantras it is said: vastrenavrta-dehas tu yo narah pranamed dharim svitri bhavati mudhatma sapta janmani bhavini "Anyone who offers respects and obeisances to the Deity while wearing garments on the upper portion of his body is condemned to be a leper for seven births." Again from Pancharatra Pradipa: (preparing for puja Abhigamanam and Upadanam PP1, and VaiSNava Dress (vastra-paridhAna PP 1.7) The first rule of dress is that one should never be naked! ZrIla PrabhupAda writes: To cover the lower part of the body is a principle of human civilization, and when a man or woman forgets this principle, he or she becomes degraded. [Kln?a book, "Deliverance of Nalak?vera and Ma?igr?va", Krsna Book I,p.70 ] A male devotee should wear a kaup?na and an upper and lower cloth; wearing only a lower cloth is improper. The right arm should be uncovered when one performs pUjA; so the chAdar should be worn either hanging down on both sides of the neck, wrapped underneath the right arm and over the left shoulder, or wrapped around the waist. A hari-nAma chAdar may be worn only if it does not hang below the waist; otherwise one is likely to offend the holy name by sitting on it.*There is even an injunction against men wearing an upper cloth of any kind when coming before the Lord in the temple. ZrIla PrabhupAda quotes from the tantras as follows: Any [man] who offers respects and obeisances to the Deity while wearing garments on the upper portion of his body is condemned to be a leper for seven births. [Cc. Antya 12.37, purport] This rule is still observed in South India. At the PadmanAbha temple in Trivandrum men are not allowed to come before the Deity without first taking off their shirts. PUjArIs wear the upper cloth around the waist. This rule does not seem to be strictly followed in North India, however. Although this regulation may not be followed by all (male) devotees, the male pUjArIs may observe it when offering obeisances before they enter the Deity room to start their service, briefly removing the chAdar to offer obeisances. It is a general standard for men to wear only unsewn cloth on the altar. Again, even this standard is not strictly kept in many temples in North India, where one often sees pUjArIs wearing kurtas or even T-shirts in cold weather. To avoid wearing sewn cloth (and to avoid getting sick in cold weather) men pUjArIs may wear more than one chAdar, made of raw silk or fine wool. When worshiping Deities and when cooking, women should be dressed in a sArI, with their heads covered. They should not use perfume and should part their hair in the middle and braid it or tie it in a bun. Actually women also used to follow this system (and some still do in Kerala). There are numberous pictures of topless lady bhaktas and goddesses on temples in India. It was not considered immodest until the arrival of the Moguls and later under the British. In Sri Rangam many orthodox ladies wear only one piece of cloth when going to the temple or for puja. It is a 9 yard sari (without choli) The sastras state that sewn cloth should not be worn for puja. VASTRA PRAVRTA DEHAS TU YO NARAH PRANAMET MAM SVITRI SA JAYATE MURKHAH SAPTA JANMANI BHAMINI (HARI BHAKTI VILASA 8/390 from VARAHA PURANA) Oh dear wife, any person who pays Me long obeisances (dandavats) with his body covered with clothes (clothes means sewn cloth), those foolish persons get white leprosy for the next seven births. MUKHE PARYYASUITE YASMAD BHAVED ASUCI BHAGNARAH TATAH KURYAT PRAYATNENA SUDDHYARTHAM DANTA DHAVANAM UPAVASE'PI NO DUSYED DANTADHAVANAM ANJANAM GANDHA ALANKARA SAD VASTRA PUSPA MALANULEPANAM (HARI BHAKTI VILASA 3/225,226 from SKANDA PURANA, KASI KHANDA) If one does not brush his teeth and clean the mouth, it remains foul. Cleanliness is destroyed with a foul mouth. Therefore one should endeavor to properly brush his teeth. One should always clean his teeth, and possibly put ointment, sandalwood paste, ornaments, clean pure clothing, fragrant flower garlands, even some perfume on the body, even on the fasting days. In this, there is no offense. NAGNAU MALINA VASTRAH SYAT NAGNAS CA ARDHA PATAH SMRTAH NAGNO DVIGUNA VASTRAH SYAT NAGNO RAKTA PATAS TATHA (HARI BHAKTI VILASA 4/147 spoken by Atri Muni) Anyone who is wearing dirty clothes is equal to a nude man. Ordinarily, if the cloth is torn into half, the person wearing it is said to be naked as well. Any person who is wearing double clothes is also said to be nude. Anybody wearing red colored clothes is said to be nude. In shastra called Nityakriya it is said: Dress: One should in most cases have trikaccha dhoti or kaupina. One should wear the sacred thread (upavita). One should have sikha tied. One should not have the head or throat covered. One should not have shoes on. Hands and feet should be clean. Lower Cloth: The lower cloth should be worn properly, ie in tri kaccha style. Tri kaccha refers to tucking in the hem (kaccha) of the dhoti three times. This means one should wear ones cloth with the dhoti tail tucked in at the back. This originally served the function of kaupina. If one is wearing a kaupina however, this rule is not so strictly applied, though it is still commonly observed as the proper mode of dress for deity worship, sacrifice, ceremonial functions, reading scripture and eating. Color: According to some scriptures (Grha Sutras), a brahmana brahmacari should wear earth-colored or white cloth, ksatriya brahmacari should wear reddish cloth and vaisya brahmacari should wear yellow cloth. At present brahmacaris often are seen wearing white, and reddish color is reserved for those fixed in fixed brahmacarya and for sannyasis. According to Manu, brahmana householders should wear white, ksatriyas should wear red, vaisyas should wear yellow and sudras should wear blue. Thus it is the custom even at present for the male grhastha to wear clean white cloth. The prescribed colors for the other asramas are not generally followed at present. Vanaprasthas if still living with their wives remain wearing white cloth. Sannyasis should wear reddish - ocra cloth. When one takes initiation it is symbolic of the panch-samskara rites to give up our previous ways and misconceptions, we mark the body with tilak and wear dhoti to symbolise externally of the inner changes we have begun and plan to develop. It is very important how we see ourselves and how others see us. If we are weak and not convinced that we are spiritual by nature and that we are following a system that can give us pure love of God, and can share that with others, sure we hide in non-devotional dress. However, if we follow the good example of Srila Prabhupad and advertise our position as a devotee by wearing devotional dress it will help our own self-image as well as assist others in their identification who where to find Krishna - in a Krishna conscious person. Dr. Misra gave him a coat, but ZrIla PrabhupAda never gave up wearing his dhot?, although it became difficult to walk against the gusts. Swami Nikhilananda of the Ramakrishna Mission had advised ZrIla PrabhupAda that if he wanted to remain in the West, he should abandon strict adherence to the Indian habits of simple dress and pure vegetarian diet. Meat and liquor and pants and a coat were almost a necessity in this climate, he had said. Even before ZrIla PrabhupAda had left India, one of his Godbrothers had demonstrated to him how he should eat in the West with a knife and fork. ZrIla PrabhupAda never considered taking on any of these Western ways. His advisors counseled him not to remain an alien, but to get into the spirit of American life, even if this meant breaking vows one held in India. Almost all Indian immigrants compromised their old ways. But ZrIla PrabhupAda's ideas were different, and he could not be budged. Others may have to compromise, he thought, because they have come to beg technological knowledge from the West. "But I am not a beggar," he said, "I am a giver." His intention was not to learn the ways of the mlecchas (uncultured Westerners), but to teach the Westerners how to do things according to the Vedic culture. ZrIla PrabhupAda, in his solitary wanderings, became known to a number of local city people. One was Mr. Ruben, a Turkish Jew who in the winter of 1965 and 1966 was working as a New York City subway conductor. Mr. Ruben first saw ZrIla PrabhupAda sitting on a park bench, and being an outgoing person and something of a world traveler, he sat and talked with the Indian holy man. He seemed to know [Mr. Ruben relates] that he would have temples filled up with devotees. He would look out and say, "I am not a poor man. I am rich. There are temples and books. They are existing, they are there, but the time is separating us from them. " He always mentioned "we" and spoke about the one who sent him, his spiritual master. He didn't know people at that time, but he said, "I am never alone. " He always looked like a lonely man to me. That's what made me think of him like a holy man, Elijah, who always went out alone. I don't believe he had any followers. When the weather was not rainy or dry, ZrIla PrabhupAda would catch the bus every day to Grand Central Station and walk down Madison Avenue or Forty-second Street, sometimes visiting the library. He would also walk over to the New India House on East Sixty-fourth Street or walk past the United Nations Building. Riding the bus down Fifth Avenue, he would look at the big buildings and imagine that some day. They could be used in Krsna consciousness. Materialists had erected such enormous structures and yet had made no provisions for spiritual life, and therefore, in spite of all the great achievements of technology, people ended up feeling empty and useless. They had built these big buildings, but their children were going to LSD. As he traveled downtown, various buildings would attract his mind as potential homes for a temple: a building on Twenty-third Street, a building on Fourteenth Street with a dome. The weather continued to get colder, but there was no snow in December. On Seventy-second Street, the Retailer's Association erected tall red poles with great tinsel Christmas trees on top. From the top of each pole sprouted a long tinsel garland, which extended from either side of the street to meet its counterpart in the middle, in a red tinsel star surrounded by multicolored lights. Some of the shops on Columbus Avenue sold Christmas trees, and the continental restaurants were bright with holiday lighting. Though ZrIla PrabhupAda did no Christmas shopping, he stopped at a number of book stores, where he attempted to sell sets of ZrImad-BhAgavatam. He visited Samuel Weiser's book store, the Doubleday's, and the Paragon Book Gallery on Thirty-eighth Street. Mrs. Ferber, the wife of the Paragon Gallery's proprietor, remembers ZrIla PrabhupAda as "a pleasant and extremely polite small gentleman." The first time he called, she says, he wasn't able to interest them in his books, but when he tried again she and her husband took them. ZrIla PrabhupAda used to stop by the Paragon about once a week. And since the books were selling regularly, he was usually able to collect small amounts of money from sales. He left a number of books with them, and whenever he needed a copy to sell personally, he would come in and pick it up at the Paragon. Sometimes he would phone and ask how they were selling. Mrs. Ferber says that every time ZrIla PrabhupAda came, he would ask for a glass of water. "If an ordinary customer had made such a request, I would ordinarily have said, 'There is the water cooler.' But because he was an old man, I couldn't tell him that, of course. He was very polite always, very modest, and a good scholar. So whenever he would ask, I would fetch him a cup of water personally." One time ZrIla PrabhupAda conversed with Mrs. Ferber about Indian cuisine, and she mentioned she especially liked samosAs (spicy, vegetable-filled savories). The next time he visited he brought a plate of samosAs and gave them to her. She enjoyed them and remembers the occasion well. (SDG Biography of a pure devotee - Im trying to open a temple 1965-66) A TridaNDi-sannyAsI Keeps his zikhA, Sacred Thread, and SannyAsI Dress 15.38 zikhI yajJopavItI syAt tridaNDI sa-kamanDuluM sa pavitraz ca kASAyI gAyatrIN ca japet sadA A tridaNDI sannyAsI keeps his zikhA as well as his sacred thread after renunciation, He also carries a kamaNDalu. He wears saffron cloth, and remaining fixed in purity, he chants the gAyatrI mantra and the japa of the holy name. (Skanda PurANa, SUta SaMhitA) 15.39 ekavAsA dvidvAsAtha zikhI. yajJopavItavAn kamaNDalukaro vidvAMs-tridaNDo yAti tat-param Wearing one or two pieces of cloth, maintaining the tuft of hair, and continuing to wear the sacred thread, with a waterpot in his hand, a learned sannyAsI, who is the best of men, attains the Supreme Lord. (Padma PurANa, Svarga KhaNDa Adi 13) Otoh, these verses support the difference between dvijas and zUdras even after dIkSa - zUdras can't wear uttarIya and upavIta save for the worship: zUdraM tu tantrajair mantrair dAsAntaM nAma ca smRtam upavItaM ca vastraM ca guNa mantreNa yojayet 14 uttarIyopavIte ca pUjA kAle tu nAnyadA na zUdrasya paraM bIjaM jape dhyAne ca kalpayet 15 For the zUdra the mantras used should be those prescribed in the tantras and give them names ending in dAsa. Give them the upavIta and uttarIya reciting the guNa mantra. The upper cloth and the thread should be used by the sudras only during worship and not at other times. Don't teach the zUdra the highest bIja mantra (praNava) either for japa nor dhyAna. (Parama saMhitA 17.14-15) -- Regarding your last statement: "Did Prabhupada ever request us to wear sari and dhoti as ISKCON uniforms? The Vedabase doesn't support that idea." The following is an excerpt from an article by Hari Sauri Prabhu, with many quotations from VedaBase which indeed do support that idea. This suggests to me that your other assertion may also be wrong. That would require some research. Aside from this according to Pancaratra agama one can not wear stitched cloth while worshiping the Deity. "The value of wearing saris and dhotis in the execution of our devotional activities." (Hari Sauri Prabhu) http://www.dandavats.com/?p=4817 Excerpt: You say that others have said that in the early days of ISKCON Srila Prabhupada did not insist on his followers wearing Vaisnava dress (dhotis and saris). Its true that he did not specifically introduce the dress as a requirement and there are quite a few references for that which, to save space, I will not cite here. However, once his followers adopted it, his mood was to enthusiastically endorse it, to the point of sometimes criticising disciples who did not wear it. A primary example was Kirtanananda Swami. Just after taking sannyasa in 1967 he returned from India to America and began telling all the devotees not to wear Vaisnava robes nor shave their heads and keep a sikha. He had his rationale for this, saying that the robes and sikha would put people off and hamper our preaching work. A devotee called Damodar wrote to Srila Prabhupada and asked him for his opinion. Prabhupada replied on October 13 from Calcutta [note: ?flag? here means sikha]: My Dear Damodara, Please accept my blessings. I am in due receipt of your letter of Oct. 9. I am very sorry to hear that Kirtanananda is advising you to give up the robes and the flags on the head. Please stop this nescience as I never instructed Kirtanananda to act like that. I am not at all satisfied with this action of Kirtanananda. Kirtanananda has no right to instruct you in that way, without consulting me. People are being attracted to the chanting of Hare Krishna & not to Kirtanananda?s devices. Kirtanananda suggested to me when he was here that the Americans do not like the robes & flag. I told him personally if you think that Americans in great numbers will follow you, simply for not having robes & flag, I therefore advised him to drop for a few days in London & test this theory. But he has gone directly to N. Y. & is now causing these disturbances without consulting me. I have not sanctioned these methods. In my opinion, Clean shaved Brahmacharies & Grhasthas in saffron robes look like angels from Baikunta. Translation of prayers into English is good & if somebody dresses like nice American gentleman without any robes, I have no objection; but every one of my disciples must have the flag & marks of tilak on forehead. This is essential. Besides that, nobody should do anything without my sanction. I am very sorry to hear Kirtanananda, without doing anything practical, changes his ideas constantly. He was first man in our society to take the robes, shave cleanly, & take flag & now he is changing his position. You have asked me to tell you whether you are right or carry on by the following the foolish advice of Kirtanananda, & I say straight that Kirtanananda is wrong and you are right when you say that the movement will come to nothing if I am not satisfied with your actions. (SPL Damodara — Calcutta 13 October, 1967) He repeated the same in his letter to Kirtanananda from 16 October 1967: "Since you have returned to NY you have falsely dictated that I do not want the robes or flags. Why are you disturbing the whole situation in my absence? I never ordered you to speak like that. They must continue to have robes and telok and flags and they must distinguish themselves from the hippies. I never objected to any of my students dressing like nice American gentlemen, clean shaved; but those who are my disciples must have flag, telok and beads on neck without fail." Here we see that within only one year of the formation of ISKCON Srila Prabhupada is strongly endorsing the wearing of robes, although he does not object if someone wants to dress like an American gentleman. But tilak and sikha are essential. Hari-sauri das ACBSP: As a matter of fact, yes he did: August 2 1976 - New Mayapur [TD 3] "When Harikesa observed that the four sinful acts we avoid are all unnatural, Prabhupada agreed. "Unnatural, yes. What for smoking? What for drinking? How nicely they sit down on the ground and take prasadam. Why there is need of table, chair and these dishes and fork and knife and so on, so on? Why?" "It's hard to cut the meat. You need a good surface," Harikesa laughed. Prabhupada was also laughing. "Our Bon Maharaja, once I was eating in his festival and ... He's a bada-sahib. So he has given fork and knife. So I did not know, I do not remember even which way I took fork. So Bon Maharaja began to criticize, 'You are going to foreign country you do not know which hand to take this fork and knife?' So I told him, 'I am not going to learn all these things. I am going to teach them something else -- to forget it! You went to learn all these things. But I am not going to learn anything.'" -- I have had this discussion many times. If you say that Srila Prabhupada is under the influence of his early twentieth-century Bengali upbringing, then you are saying that Srila Prabhupada is still under the influence of the modes of nature and therefore not a mahabhagavata. If you try to get out of it and say that Srila Prabhupada is indeed a mahabhagavata but still influenced in some ways by the early twentieth-century Bengali culture, then you are saying that Krsna consciousness is useless because even a person who has attained the topmost level cannot transcend the modes of nature. Generally, men who are very experienced with women have no trouble with Srila Prabhupada's statements about women, and many women have no problems either. In 1966, I said to Srila Prabhupada, "The Americans will not accept these things you are saying about women." Srila Prabhupada replied, "I am not going to change the truth for the Americans." Srila Prabhupada says: "At night you cannot see the sun, but when the sun rises, you can see the sun, you can see yourself also. By seeing sun, you can see yourself, you can see the world. Similarly, when you see Krsna, then you see everything. "Without seeing Krsna, your eyes are blind, your senses are imperfect. Therefore it is said that 'Self-realized soul can impart knowledge unto you because he has seen the truth.'" [Bhagavad-gita 4.34-39 -- Los Angeles, January 12, 1969] Does Srila Prabhupada see Krsna or does he not? Who among Srila Prabhupada's critics can say that they have seen Krsna? Sorry folks, but Krsna consciousness is a package deal. It's all or nothing. Your most humble servant, Umapati Swami -- Srila Prabhupada on Devotee Appearance By Bhakta Jan Mares Posted June 4, 2003 Sometimes we hear that in order to have more impact on modern society devotees should adjust to its ways- for example, by wearing Western clothes. If we look at Srila Prabhupada's example, however, we see the opposite attitude. In Srila Prabhupada Lilamrita, there is an occasion when Srila Prabhupada met Swami Nikhilananda, who urged him to adopt Western clothes and habits. But Srila Prabhupada said he would teach Westerners Vedic ways instead: "Srila Prabhupada wore a coat Dr. Mishra had given him, but he never gave up wearing his dhoti, despite the cold, windy walks. Swami Nikhilananda of the Ramakrishna Mission had advised Prabhupada that if he wanted to stay in the West he should abandon his traditional Indian dress and strict vegetarianism. Meat-eating and liquor, as well as pants and coat, were almost a necessity in this climate, he had said. Before Prabhupada had left India, one of his Godbrothers had demonstrated to him how he should eat in the West with a knife and fork. But Prabhupada never considered taking on Western ways. His advisors cautioned him not to remain an alien but to get into the spirit of American life, even if it meant breaking vows he had held in India; almost all Indian immigrants compromised their old ways. But Prabhupada's idea was different, and he could not be budged. The others may have had to compromise, he thought, but they had come to beg technological knowledge from the West. 'I have not come to beg something,' he said, 'but to give something.'" (Srila Prabhupada Lilamrta 15: "It Will Not Be Possible to Assist You") Prabhupada: The Ramakrishna Mission man came to see me. He said that "You dress like American. Otherwise, nobody will take you as important." Acyutananda: Nikhilananda... (Morning Walk - February 20, 1976, Mayapura) Prabhupada: Ramakrishna Mission, in the beginning they asked me, "You be in coat and pant." Otherwise nobody will hear me. Gargamuni: Ramakrishna suggested Prabhupada use coats and pants. Prabhupada: Their sannyasis, they dress in coat-tie. Brahmananda: Swami Nikhilananda. [Arrival of Devotees- February 24, 1977, Mayapura] This is in complete accord with previous acaryas: "The next important items are as follows: (1) One should decorate the body with tilaka, which is the sign of the Vaisnavas. (The idea is that as soon as a person sees these marks on the body of the Vaisnava, he will immediately remember Krsna. Lord Caitanya said that a Vaisnava is he who, when seen, reminds one of Krsna. Therefore, it is essential that a Vaisnava mark his body with tilaka to remind others of Krsna.)" [Nectar of Devotion 6: How to Discharge Devotional Service] One who suggests that we "conform to Western mores of living" shows a complete lack of understanding of both material and spiritual reality. Even theologians often don't understand the purpose of this world. I heard the above suggestion recently from a "Christian" theologian. He was actually a deist and like many others seemed to be quite secularized and materialistic, thinking religion to be a product of social development. Instead of emulating the liberated state, such persons actually encourage us to adhere to the life in the prison of this world. Should a free person while visiting a prison start to behave like a prisoner? No. Common sense suggests that prisoners should learn how to adjust to outside life. Yet at the beginning, the difference is very big, so there can be some adjustments to bridge the gap and they should be decided on by an acarya. This was done by Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati, and Srila Prabhupada. Srila Prabhupada made many adjustments for the West- simpler Ekadasi standard (in comparison with Hari Bhakti Vilasa), fewer rounds of japa (from 64 to 16), men and women under one roof though in separated quarters, etc.- and was sometimes criticized for this by smartas and even some of his Godbrothers. As for adjustments, one has to distinguish between things of nitya and anitya nature. Nitya is for example the language: We can't drop Sanskrit and use only English or other local languages. There is evidence that Sanskrit entails more than meets the ear, so to say. Chanting should be done primarily with traditional instruments, although others are not forbidden. Tilak is an important Vaishnava sign, which has to be kept. Dhoti and sari also belong to the eternal world, although Srila Prabhupada allowed us to distribute in karmi clothes in the West. For eating, we can use local foods but in sync with our rules. These are just a few examples. Let the following words be our guideline: "The simple definition of Vaisnava is given by Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu: a person who immediately reminds one of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Krsna, is a Vaisnava." (SB 4.21.37 purport) (c) Dipika.org, June 4, 2003 -- All of Jan's statements are very gratifying to read. And I remember Indradyumna Maharaja repeatedly asking his CIS disciples (who in the former Soviet Union get more stares then in USA/Europe) to still go out in public places fearlessly in dhoti/sari and with vaisnava tilaka. I applaud IDS's preaching like this. Here in CIS I also remind devotees to wear Vaisnava dress as far as possible. While agreeing that certainly vaisnava dress in public is a very good and quite proper preaching medium, didn't Prabhupada say in 1966 that if needed a Vaisnava could dress in 'respectable external dress, but that the tilaka and 'flags' (sikha's) must be there"? A vaisnava dress also protects one from possible sinful desires that creep in the subconsciousness when wearing karmi cloths. It forces one to be representative of the Vaisnava tradition, no matter where they go. Now-a-days, most Western householder devotees (even a few brahmacaris in the West too) even if they visit the temple in dhotis etc., keep short hair, and no sikhas, and often come to the temple with no tilaka. So perhaps they also should be lovingly told too... Even if some scholarly Vaisnava goes to college etc., still it was gratifying to see photos of HH TKG going to college in his sannyasa cloth and tilaka, I'm not sure he did it all the time, but it sure looked like he was into keeping Prabhupada's idea of wearing Vaisnava dress fearlessly. It looked like he (SP and TKG, IDS, why not we too) could weather any criticism and objections from any crowd. it is an opportunity to preach. Aspiring for eternal service of PrabhupAda's Krishna-BalarAma in VrajadhAma. Vaishnava daasaanundaasaha, TridaNDi BhikSu, Bhakti Visrambha MAdhava -- In the SB the words 'vastra' and 'dukulam' are general terms describing outer garments including dhoti AND sari. In Bengali the term would be bahir-vasa meaning 'outer garment'. So although a specific word (eg. SARI) may not be used, there are TRADITIONS in different cultures. In other words, in Indian villages today, the same clothes that have been worn for thousands & millions of years, are still worn by the local inhabitants. There is also a descripton of Lord Vamanadeva wearing 'kaupin' which occurred even in a different Manu period. So kaupin also refers to a garment covering the loins (for men). The fact that saris and dhotis (wrapped in various styles) are still worn by Indian people (from time immemorial) is evidence that such cloth was also worn in Vedic times, predating written history. ys ganesadasa -- Bhakti Visrambha Madhava Swami: In Caitanya Bhagavata Madhya Khandha, ch. 2 (somewhere around sloka 50 or so) Gauranga is waiting at the ghata in Mayapura along the Ganga in the early morning to greet the other members of Panca tattva after They come out of the Ganga. He (Mahaprabhu) wrings out Their wet dhoti and gives Them a dry one (Vrndavana dasa, specifically in the Bengali there uses the word "dhuti vastra" so there you have it from one of our acharyas in the Bengali.) Mahaprabhu personally wore them, Krsna personally wears them, what sastric evidence do we need for our personal life? For work or selling books, then SP said "we could/should dress like respectable gentlemen", not in dishelved karmi cloths. But in our private capacity? Definitely dhoti/kurta. Or for ladies Srila Prabhupada personally bought saris for his young female disciples in the 1960's. So natually he expected his females to dress in sari. He complimented them. "Women look better and more chaste in a sari". -- Mahat-tattva dasa: > CC Madhya 14.5 > > TRANSLATION > Following SArvabhauma BhaTTAcArya’s instructions, the King had given up > his royal dress. He now entered the garden in the dress of a VaiSNava. > > PURPORT > Sometimes members of the International Society for Krishna > Consciousness—especially in the Western countries—find it difficult to > approach people to distribute books because people are unfamiliar with the > traditional saffron robes of the devotees. The devotees have therefore > inquired whether they can wear European and American dress before the > general public. From the instructions given to King PratAparudra by > SArvabhauma Bha˜TTAcArya, we can understand that we may change our dress in > any way to facilitate our service. When our members change their dress to > meet the public or to introduce our books, they are not breaking the > devotional principles. The real principle is to spread the KRSNa > consciousness movement, and if one has to change into regular Western > dress for this purpose, there should be no objection. Yes, there is no objection if one wants to wear western dress for a few hours while distributing books, but then one should put on dhoti/sari. It was very clear that Srila Prabhupada wanted devotees to wear dhotis/saris. Before me, so many swamijis went there [to Western countries such as America]. They did not give, but they took something and came here [India] and advertised themselves as foreign-returned sannyasi and exploited the people. They lost even their original dress. Everyone knows, I have never changed my dress. Rather, I have given the dress to the foreigners, and they have taken it. The Ramakrishna mission people came to request me that I dress myself in coat, pant, hat. Because they are doing. Their so-called swamis, they are dressed in coat, pant, hat. So this is a culture. (Srila Prabhupada lecture on Srimad-Bhagavatam 1.9.48 -- Mayapura, June 14, 1973) Syamasundara: This is Kalki dasa and Ambika devi dasi [husband and wife]. Prabhupada: Now, with this dress you look so beautiful. This Vedic dress is also nice, very beautiful. It increases the beauty hundred times by this dress. (Initiations -- Sydney, April 2, 1972) Kirtanananda was the first to wear a dhoti, and Srila Prabhupada showed him how to put it on, in the style that you talk about. Kirtanananda had told Srila Prabhupada that he wanted to wear robes. When Kirtanananda came back from India in 1967, he told the devotees that they could wear karmi clothes. When Srila Prabhupada found out, he was displeased and wrote a letter stating that he had never said any such thing. He said that when he saw the devotees with flags [sikhas] and dhotis, he thought they looked like angels from Vaikuntha. I received my second initiation in Montreal in 1968, but I had gone to Montreal without a dhoti because we did not worry so much about those things at that time. When the ceremony began Srila Prabhupada asked me, "Where is your dhoti?" So Himavati gave me a piece of cloth that I sort of made a dhoti out of. But Srila Prabhupada did not want to perform the initiation unless I was in a dhoti. -Umapati Swami Swamiji had commented that he did not like the Western women's dress, and at his request, Yamuna was dressed in a sari. (Srila Prabhupada Lilamrta 22) Nandarani devi dasi recalls her marriage day in San Fransisco (1967): "I finished cooking that afternoon about four o'clock, and then I went home to get dressed for the wedding. Although I had never worn anything but old dresses and jeans, Swamiji had suggested to the other ladies that they find a way to put me into a sari for the wedding. So we bought a piece of silk to use for a sari. I went to Malati's house. She was going to try to help me put it on. I couldn't keep it on, so she had to sew it on me. Then they decorated me with flowers and took me to Swamiji and showed him. He was very happy. "This is the way our women should always look. No more jeans and dresses. They should always wear saris." (Srila Prabhupada Lilamrta 22: "Swami Invites the Hippies") If you want you can cut your hairs, but there is no need of cutting. It would be nicer if you can put on sari, you can learn it from Jadurani. You must remain like a nice girl. The dress and appearance is social convention of the society. (SPL Madhavi Lata - Montreal 20 June, 1968) -- Candrasekhar Acarya dasa BCS: The argument can be made that a brahmacari or sannyasi should wear his dhoti because, indeed, he is a 'monk'. A householder, on the other hand, may be a brahmana, but he is not a monk in the Western understanding of the term. Therefore the person asking Mahat tattva prabhu, "Are you a monk?" indeed refers to monks. However, given that the large majority of the ISKCON Vaisnava world is (and will increasingly be) made up of grihasthas living in the world in all spheres of social and economical levels, it would be unfair to impose upon them the restricted profile of a monk. One of the advantages of being a grihastha is that he can indeed infiltrate himself in various places in society and preach by his own example. Wearing a dhoti categorically in all circumstances in today's society may not realistic, or even desired by Srila Prabhupada, as will be seen below. > Yes, there is no objection if one wants to wear western dress for a few > hours while distributing books, but then one should put on dhoti/sari. > It was very clear that Srila Prabhupada wanted devotees to wear > dhotis/saris. There are many photographs in which Srila Prabhupada is surrounded by some disciples who are wearing coat and pant. Here are a few quotes also: Dr. Wolfe: Zrila PrabhupAda, the dhotI is not important then. PrabhupAda: Not important. He can have dhotI, you can have pant, you can have... It doesn't matter. (Garden Conversation with Professors -- June 24, 1975, Los Angeles) PrabhupAda: Now, nowadays coat-pant is very costly. If you can spend your money, costly dress, we have no objection. (VD 41: Bhuvanezvara, January 21, 1977: Room Conversation) RAmezvara: No. I'm just saying that it is a little difficult if they wear their dhotI. PrabhupAda: No, dhotI, I don't say. You have nice coat-pant. I don't say that you have to... I never said that. You have adopted it. (laughs) I never said that "You put on dhotI." But those who are sannyAsIs, brahmacArIs, their dress is different. But it doesn't require that one has to become a sannyAsI. (Conversation on Train to Allahabad -- January 11, 1977, India) This point is important, I think: "But those who are sannyAsIs, brahmacArIs, their dress is different. But it doesn't require that one has to become a sannyAsI." We should not be more "Catholic than the pope," or more "Vedic than Srila Prabhupada," and we should not forget, as Prabhupada makes very clear in the last quote above, that there may be different allowances in terms of dress for different asrams. At the very beginning of the movement, when everyone was living in a temple, irrespective of asram, the contrasts between asrams was not yet pronounced as it later naturally became (and will increasingly become in the future.) For example, in one letter from 1967, Srila Prabhupada says, "Clean shaved Brahmacharies & Grhasthas in SAFFRON robes look like angels from Baikunta." Which grihastha today would wear saffron robes?? Since Prabhupada said, speaking about dhotis, 'you have adopted it,' one can say that wearing a dhoti (at least for a grihastha) is not as essential as wearing, for example, Tilak and keeping kunti mala and sikha. These symbols, on the contrary, were considered by Prabhupada as 'essential' for ALL Vaisnavas, as shown below: "if somebody dresses like nice American gentleman without any robes, I have no objection; but every one of my disciples must have the flag & marks of tilak on forehead. This is essential." (SPL Damodara — Calcutta 13 October, 1967) "I have no objection if members of the Society dress like nice American gentlemen; but in all circumstances a devotee cannot avoid tilak, flag on head, & beads on neck. These are essential features of a Vaisnava." (SPL Brahmananda — Calcutta 14 October, 1967) I never objected to any of my students dressing like nice American gentleman, clean shaved; those who are my disciples must have flag, tilak & beads on neck without fail. (SPL Kirtanananda — Calcutta 16 October, 1967) > Thank you very much, Mahat-tattva Prabhu, for the quotes. No one can or > will argue that Prabhupada did stress devotional clothes and wanted > devotees to wear them as much as possible. Personally, I love to wear a dhoti. But I am not a monk in an ISKCON temple, and I also love wearing a fancy coat and pant with nice Tilak and a nice sikha. And I feel absolutely bona-fide doing it, given the quotes above. Will the first high court judges in the modern world who wear Tilak to court automatically wear dhotis also? Your respectful servant, Candrasekhar acarya dasa -- When Jadurani was a very new devotee (like all the others), once Srila Prabhupada requested her to paint Krsna with the cowherd boys. After several days of trying, Jadurani approached Prabhupada and confessed him: "Actually I do not know how to paint the garments of the cowherd boys. In your lectures you say they were vere very artistically dressed, and I have never seen such a dress..." (she explained, narrating this story, that at these early days of ISKCON all the men devotees used to wear dhotis according to a "balloon fashion") "Swamiji, could you please teach one of our devotees to wrap dhoti like the cowherd bouy, so that I can see him and paint?" Prabhupada said nothing. Next time he entered Jadurani's room, carrying a dhoti. He stood in front of her. He wrapped the other dhoti on his own one, making all these intricate folds etc. with it. Then he gracefully stepped out of his own dhoti. He assumed a three-bent pose, imitating that he was holding the flute in his hands. He stood like this before Jadurani, smiling at her. Srila Prabhupada ki - jay! (a story narrated by Jadurani Mataji in one of CIVA newsletters)