

Collection of Comments on the Social Seminar Paper and Ideas for Further
Discussion by Harikesa Swami


Comments by Suhotra Swami:

On the first page of the minutes of the Social Development Seminar
(Abentheuer), we find these sentences:

"Although almost all problems could be resolved by the close teamwork of the
brahmanas and kings, the citizens of the state still had a major role to play
in problem-solving within society.  What that role is will also be discussed
herein.  It is my presumption that if there is a functioning social structure
within a community, there are less social problems to resolve from above.
This will be discussed more later on..."

Then Varnasrama in terms of ISKCON is discussed at length.  A key sentence in
this section is this: "A social structure is based on responsibility; to one's
self, to the spiritual master, to the Supreme Lord, to your children, to your
parents, to your wife or husband, to your community, to your society."

Then there are questions.  These are "how-to" questions, mainly about
immediate concerns: what should grhasthas do, should devotees work for karmis,
will we continue to have to stop gaps in manpower and understanding, what if
the husband takes sannyasa, should there be family insurance, how should
marriages be arranged, and so on.

Near the end of the minutes, the idea of a National Ministry for Social
Development is proposed.  The ministry is to research, catalogue and develop
understanding of the need and method of social development among the general
community of devotees.

I'm left with misgivings about the general direction these minutes head in. In
my opinion, our social problems in ISKCON are not really going to be solved by
answering the "how-to" questions as much as by answering the "why" questions.
I saw little evidence of "why" thinking from the devotees.  Yet these devotees
are now going to form a Ministry of Social Development.

The sentences I quoted before, from the beginning of the minutes, are not (on
a "how-to" level) expressing something revolutionary, new and unheard of in
the world.  Maybe it seems so to some persons (i.e. devotees who joined ISKCON
when they were 18 and received their substantial education as to how the world
works only thereafter).  But among karmi sociologists, the need of a local
social regulating system which works in areas beyond the effective reach of
government authority is well-understood.

My reservation about the direction the meeting took is this: it is also
well-understood that when "how-to" is the main concern of the local social
regulating system (which is to grow out of this new ministry), that system
takes the form of administrative direction, or in other words, bureaucracy.

Alexis de Tocqueville wrote this about the early United States:

"I have previously made the distinction between two types of centralization,
calling one governmental and the other administrative. Only the first exists
in American, the second being almost unknown. If the directing power in
American society had both these means of government at its disposal and
combined the right to command with the faculty and habit to perform everything
itself, if having established the general principles of the government, it
entered into the details of their application, and having regulated the great
interests of the country, it came down to consider even individual interests,
then freedom would soon be banished from the New World."

My point in quoting this is not to raise a fear of an impending loss of
freedom by instituting a local social regulative system.  It is to draw a
parallel between ISKCON today and the period of American history described by
de Tocqueville.  America has become much more bureaucratic now than it was
then.  Yet it is well-known that bureaucracy is no substitute for culture.
Often it has been said that America's main problem is that it has no culture.
Freedom without culture equals social chaos. And bureaucracy is the uncultured
(but pragmatic "how-to") attempt to solve that problem. But it doesn't solve
the problem.

It is very interesting that you compared ISKCON to a revolution against
material society.  That makes ISKCON society very analogous to the post-
revolutionary American society de Tocqueville observed.  The problem common to
both, I would argue, is a lack of culture.  I therefore think the question of
culture needs to be stressed much more when we speak of social problems/
solutions in ISKCON.  Culture pertains to why we should have local social
regulation.  You made some remarks in that direction--the key sentence I
quoted above, about responsibility, and another place where you spoke about
love as the necessary basis of the family and, in extension, the society.
But as I noted, the questions that followed seemed to veer away from why to
how. I believe there are good reasons for questioning such questions.

I wonder if the attitude behind such questions is, "Yes, we know the
philosophy, but we need to know how to apply it."  This is just talking around
the real problem.  I think you pointed this out in a remark about lip service.
I would suggest that our devotees (not just the ones in Abentheuer) are weak
in one area of philosophy--ethics, especially social ethics.  Ethics is
defined as the logic behind the moral institution of life.  That moral
institution encompasses religion (ISKCON has that), law (we have that too, and
we're always making more laws), and social values (here I believe we have a
problem).

Our problem with social ethics is visible right up in the topmost echelons of
our society.  There are many problems where some devotees are deviating from
the proper standards of devotional action, and they are being protected by
their superiors.  What is this?  It is a problem of understanding ethics,
i.e. the logic behind the moral workings of a institution such as ours.
Ethics is synonymous with social responsibility.  And social ethics arguably
has more to do with culture than with theory. Culture is a moral compass.  It
is internal. In comparison, theory extracted from texts is a map.  It is
external; therefore it can be molded to fit so-called pragmatic ends, and end
up as the justification for bureaucracy.

I don't have the time to expand these arguments.  I am just trying to get
across some basics.  So I'd like to move on now to say that the question of
culture may be getting shunted to the side because it seems to be so
incorporeal.  "How-to" is something we can get our hands on, "why" is
intangible for those who want quick answers.  But we do have a tangible
culture; it is yajna.

That is the basis of Vedic civilization, as Krsna explains in Bhagavad-gita
in several places (most notably 3.10).  Sacrifice has to be stressed as the
logic behind ISKCON's moral institution, particularly our institution of
social values.  The ethics of sacrifice has to be preached and demonstrated
by the brahmanas at all levels.  It is by sacrifice, the Lord explains, that
everyone's desire is satisfied.  Sacrifice yields the results everyone wants
in their lives.  And sacrifice is an internal culture as well, a moral
compass.  The ethics of sacrifice is fundamentally a different logic from that
of pragmatism, which is concerned only with how to get external goals
accomplished efficiently so that we'll be relieved of problems (and then we
can enjoy life).  The ethics of sacrifice curbs down selfishness, promotes a
universal (internal/external) sense of sattvik well-being, and is aimed at
satisfying the Supreme Lord.

Further comments by Suhotra Swami as a reply to Harikesa Swami about writing
about social development:

You write:

>>I was also going to write about Brahminical culture, so if you do it you
will save me the trouble.  The real solution is brahminical culture.<<

The thing I am really onto here is that the answer to the SD problem is
culture, and in our world, culture means books.

Prabhupada said the wealth of our sampradaya is its books.  So you should
write, regardless of what I am doing.  Those who can write books in our
movement, should be writing books.  Because books are the basis of culture. I
am not saying managerial meetings aren't also needed, but as those questions
show, when managers get together, the direction tends to the pragmatic quick
fix-it solutions.  That's not culture.  Culture is deep. Culture means the
premises a society cherishes generation after generation. It is all in
Prabhupada's books, but we have to mine his books to find our culture.  Like
Sukadeva made the Bhagavatam sweeter by his explanation, we have to help the
future generations cherish Prabhupada's message as applied in practical life.
Also, there is no duality between preaching and culture.  Our culture is
sacrifice, and the mission of our movement is the sacrifice of the holy name.
Krsna says He is that sacrifice. Brahmanas make sacrifice real for the whole
society.  Our movement, being brahminical, has to learn to embody that
sacrifice at all levels. Then our movement will really preach, as a society of
sacrifice.

There I go again, off on a rant.

I guess I do have a lot to say about this, once someone gets me going.

But really, the best contribution to the furthering of our culture is in
writing books.  Our Western civilization was sustained all these centuries on
what?  On its great books.  And as its young generation lost interest in the
cherished ideas of its culture, that civilization now draws to a close.
Therefore the greatest need of the hour is new books for the new culture.

Anything less than this is bluffing.  Anything less than this means we are not
really serious about social development.


Comments by Bhurijan das:

1. The varnasrama system is itself extremely complicated and impossibly
laborious to actually be applied today. I know a devotee born in a brahmana
family, who, as a child growing up in a brahmana village, would have to bathe
and change his clothes upon entering his village's perimeters. Why? In case
he had seen a dog or a low class person.

I doubt we can or want to actually implement varnasrama, in the Vedic sense.
Part of what we should do, therefore, is define what we mean and don't mean by
varnasrama.

2. Here's the order the seemed to fit the paper:

The need for social structure
Alternative Social structures don't work to develop Krsna consciousness
Why Varnasrama is most suitable
Definition of Varnasrama
A few principles of Varnasrama

The problem with Krsna-izing modern culture should be explained on the road to
explaining the need for varnasrama. I also think the corporate social
structure has its place, but it is only within the management section. Yet,
it's more or less unavoidable. From the history of the Catholic Church we
learn that Catholicism assimilated much of it's form from the cultures it
spread within. One can see this all over Iskcon: eating, managing, festivals,
dressing, preaching as well. At least it should be done around the varnasrama
framework.

3. The "Do the needful" definition of a Vaisnava is so problematic. Other than
in an emergency or for specific training, the disciple "surrenders," and the
spiritual master shouldn't engage him against his nature. Rather, knowing the
depth of one's nature, a guru engages disciples according to that nature.
Thus although a Vaisnava is transcendental to the modes, that means that he is
actually a Vaisnava. It doesn't mean aspiring Vaisnava. It seems to me that
actual Vaisnava means bhava bhakti.

4. It is not my experience that managers want brahminical input. They
generally, as ksatriyas do, wish to consolidate control and don't like the
long term, input on vision that brahmana's tend to give. Ksatriyas want to
solve immediate problems now.

5. I really liked your definition of varnasrama's purpose: assist everyone in
finding a situation within society which is congenial for their advancement.
One must be happily situated by performing a service which is satisfying."
Especially true in Kali-yuga, where the lure of maya on an ill-engaged devotee
is great. I mean how long could you have nailed up sheet rock?

6. The presentation of the gurukula problem in the middle of page 9 is
correct, but it is nevertheless simplistic. The gurukula failed for many
reasons: 1. The gurukula had no social structure to either serve or get
strength and nourishment from. 2. The parents of the children mostly left. 3.
Many of the early kids were hippie kids or not of high caliber. They should
have been home being cared for by their parents. 4. The infiltration of the
values of mundane society into Iskcon life made gurukula training seem
irrelevant. 5. The kids had no vision of how to happily, securely, and
peacefully -- according to their capacity -- fit into Iskcon. As you point
out, they still don't.

7. Joint families or community in the true sense of the term solves problems.
Nuclear family is aptly named due to it's explosive nature. One man, one
woman, and children. A mess. Kaboom. Men are wired differently and can give
women a fraction of the emotional support they need.

8. One of the main principles of varnasrama is that one associates with like-
minded people and thus avoids many neurotic problems which are caused by
always being unsure of your self.

9. Proceeding organically.  I have found that things don't progress from the
leaders downward. Once the big leaders take responsibility to make it happen,
it becomes "theirs." Leaders should provide vision only. Ownership turns sand
to gold. It's good you threw the thing from you to them.

10. I have also found that the relationships between devotees are often so bad
that they do not withstand the difficulties inherent in community life. It's
like most Kali-yuga marriages. Therefore, it seems necessary to do something
-- somewhat artificially -- to strength the relationships between the
devotees, especially man-to-man and woman-to-woman.  Good, trusted, cool
brahminical leadership seems important in maintaining the relationships which
are need to foster community vision.


Comments by Drutakarma das:

I read over the paper you gave me in Sweden. I think you are on the right
track, in saying that our devotees should not be permanently stamped with a
varna label, but should act according to the standards of whatever varna they
find themselves in, by choice or superior order. That is the correct policy. I
am happy to see that you are pushing the devotees in Germany to introduce
varnasrama principles. This is one of the great unfulfilled orders of Srila
Prabhupada, and I am convinced that anyone who makes it their heart and soul
is going to get tremendous reciprocation and inspiration from Krsna.

My own view is that varnasrama preaching should proceed on three fronts.
First, we should introduce it among our core members, in the way that you
said. Second, it should be introduced among our congregational members, who
may be of various levels of commitment to ISKCON and our spiritual standards
and practices. And third, it should be introduced in our preaching to those
outside our circle, to the leaders of society at large. My study of Srila
Prabhupada's statements indicates he talked about all three things. These
should all go on in parallel, and I anticipate a synergistic effect. But it
should start with our own committed members, and then naturally it will spread
to the congregation, and in our dealings with society in general. It is the
next stage in preaching. Our new bhaktas are soon going to be politicians,
military officers, business leaders, etc., and this is how we will engage
them.

From my own study of the situation in the United States, I have said for some
time that there needs to be some adjustment. For the cities, I think there
should only be small preaching centers, with minimal Deity worship. These
would be places most for young brahmacari and brahmacarini preachers, and
perhaps also some very renounced householders. For most householders, the
cities are too expensive and the atmosphere is not hospitable for children.
Temples with elaborate Deity worship should be located in the countryside
near large cities. Devotees and guests from the city preaching centers could
come there for festivals. These suburban temples would be mainly for
householders. There would be gurukulas, inexpensive housing for householders,
a temple, devotee businesses, etc. And these centers would be close enough to
cities so that if some devotees had to work outside, they could do it, and
still live in a devotee community. Then these suburban communities, with their
economic resources, should support self-sufficient agricultural villages
further out in the countryside. If this were done on a regional basis, it
would be good. Now it is happening in an unplanned way, with many hundreds of
householders spontaneously moving to Alachua, city temples understaffed and
with huge overheads, and a few struggling attempts at self-sufficient
communities. If this were all being done in a planned way, in each region of
the country, it would be much better.


Comments by Isvara Swami:

Basically I agree with your points. It is funny to face nowadays, though, that
we have to admit that we must "love" or that the parents must "love their
children", when we have heard for so long that there is no love in this world.
It is nice that we are changing this point of view and not taking Prabhupada's
words so literally, with no deep understanding of it.

Actually I may say that our main problem is that we want to take everything
literally, and we have no deeper understanding of things. We take the
varnasrama so literally and we do not see how that can naturally come into our
own lives. In fact, I have a problem in implementing varnasrama. This is too
utopian for me. We see from Srimad Bhagavatam that there were problems in
society at that time and we will always see it in the future. I think it is
natural that in any society, specially a village, there are the intellectuals
(usually the elders), the managers, the traders, workers and students. Bas.

It is nice that we name the people like this in our village communities, so
that we have a clear structure and avoid taking everything literally from the
material social structure, or even running Iskcon as a big business
corporation like you said. But let us not try to push varnasrama so much: we
may end up in a fight among classes, or worse, among castes.

Varnasrama as we envision it, or as the devotees talk about it, is an utopia.

Also, I have problems in accepting the social structure in India nowadays as
something that comes from varnasrama. So much of it is wrong, so much
exploitation from brahmanas and ksatriyas and vaisyas and so on... No doubt
they have a nice culture (those who are cultured) and we can learn from that,
but that has to be naturally implemented in our local culture as well. Isn't
it? I see that we cannot deny our past and present cultures.

Saying that it is nice to follow India, in the way how young people behave, is
a wonder to me. The young boys and girls may not intermingle so freely in
India, that is a fact, but as far as I see, there is a big problem in their
sexual behavior, especially homosexuality among young boys because of that. Am
I wrong on this? How can we say they have "reduced the heat of passion
considerably"?

How can we keep our own children aloof from the mainstream society? They may
be healthy in their mental and social conditions, if our community is healthy
and strong. But they will always have an input from the material world. We
will not be able to check or deny it. How can we make children strong in their
vows when they see so many of us falling down, going out, coming back, so on
and so forth? We cannot deny we are very much entangled in this material
society, and shutting the doors to it is impossible.

Lastly, I agree fully that we take our communities and make them as village
communities, where people can have their own work, work outside, and somehow
are connected to the center of the community, the temple. But as far as I know
this is already going on in some places. At least in our community Nova
Gokula we have implemented that to some extent, and we have devotees living
there but working as doctors, bankers, traders, in the nearby city and
elsewhere. We have not solved the problem of the brahmacaris, though, since
they still have to collect some money to run the central administrative
office of the farm, because the local householders are not able to support
that much.


Comments by Jayadvaita Swami:


                India and the Varnasrama Puzzle

For years, it seems, ISKCON has been trying to figure out varnasrama-dharma.
What is a varnasrama community? What's the right model for an ISKCON farm? How
do devotees take on varnasrama roles yet stay transcendental?

I propose that what Srila Prabhupada was simple: What he wanted is in essence
what you see in a simple Indian village.

Indian culture gives the closest existing picture of Vedic culture. So when
you look at what Srila Prabhupada established--the kirtans, the Deity worship,
the dress, the food, the ceremonies, the customs--although we know it's
transcendental, it's also unabashedly Indian.

And since this holds true for the "fifty percent of my mission" that Srila
Prabhupada gave us, I suggest it holds true for the other fifty percent as
well.

To try to piece together the varnasrama picture from Srila Prabhupada's talks
and comments can get tough. But once you've seen what he's talking about--not
seen in just a mental or intellectual sense but physically seen it--it's
obvious, orderly, integrated, and natural. The fragments snap into place.

In short, if you want to know what a varnasrama community looks like, go out
into the Indian countryside and see one--or go see a dozen or so.

You'll see it all--people doing manual work, men farming, doing business and
tending cows. . .  You may not see ksatriyas like King Pariksit, but still
you'll see village leaders holding things together and keeping things running.
You'll see school teachers and pujaris, you'll see women doing their work,
you'll see families living together in simple houses, doing simple jobs,
living a simple, natural way of life.

And if you put that together with a program of Bhagavatam and Krsna-kirtana,
you can also see how close Krsna can be to the center of everyone's life.

Granted, not every village gives the right idea. Some of them are poor,
crummy, backward, confused, and disarrayed. But mostly they give you the right
idea (figuring in a margin for the influence of Kali), and some of them are
downright outstanding.

So if you're interested in Krsna conscious village life but you're struck
trying to figure out what it should be, go spend some time in India and see it
alive. Once you've seen a puzzle put together, it's no longer a puzzle --
it's a game.

           --Jayadvaita Swami             December 1987


Comments by Sacinandana Swami:

1. A general observation

As long as our ISKCON society continues to function under the paradigm "Do the
needful" - i.e. to support the intensive preaching outreach programs, it will
remain difficult to establish a social structure according to varnasrama-
dharma guidelines. I am not at all suggesting that we should change this
paradigm for the temple devotees, but I am just observing that a movement with
grhasthas is screaming louder than ever: "Where can I find myself in all of
this?"

My observation is we need other paradigms as well, and the leaders need to
help find them, otherwise the grhasthas and other devotees who have other
concerns than only preaching, will become disenchanted with the leadership
both managerial and spiritual of our movement.

As a congregational preacher I am totally fired up by Jayapataka Maharaja's
bhakti-branch-program. After visiting now three of his seminars and thinking,
thinking, thinking, I am of the opinion that a lot of the social structuring
will go on in that field, since it is there where the masses are and there
where the enthusiasm lies and there where the resources are.

2. The economic factor

Undoubtedly, economy is a very important key word to social development. Since
money in our western civilization is an absolute necessity to just keep the
basic necessities of life intact. Many of our devotees are just hunting after
the money in unacceptable ways and burning out as a result of that. It seems
to me that with the help of the congregation we could create systems of
employment. But it needs a good vaisya brain to figure out how. (I do have
some half-baked ideas, but it is too early to speak about them. If Krsna
wants, something will manifest from a few congregational members who are
trying to find businesses for the devotees.)

3. The need of education

Being an active member of the Vaisnava Training and Education group I am 100%
convinced that it is very important to give education to our devotees in the
following areas: service, asrama and areas like guru-disciple-relationship,
first and second initiation and some sastric knowledge. Personally, I think we
are doing pretty well on the sastric knowledge, but should focus a little bit
more on a subject matter how to function in the different phases of life. As
preachers we know there are a lot of broken hearts, broken minds and broken
sraddhas out there in our movement. If the devotees would know a little bit
better how to function in their varnas and then asramas, it would be much
better.

But for that it seems we absolutely need to find a way to take off the
financial pressure from our devotees, that they don't always have to just be
pressed into the "Do the needful" paradigm.

I feel education is important to give people an understanding how they can
utilize in a maximum way their future to become self-realized and well-
engaged.

4. Something on varnas

Naveen Krsna Prabhu told me that once Srila Prabhupada said to him personally
how to find one's varna: "Find out what is what your like to do, what makes
you happy doing it and what is easy for you to do." (The "happy"-criterion
was also given by you.)

5. The woman-issue

After being forced to look a little deeper into this (so many congregational
members, so many women in the movement, so many articles about this issue) and
after speaking with many senior devotees, I feel that it is of great necessity
to come to grips with this issue. Why? Simply because women form half of the
family, they are a very important unit of our society, and they are the
mothers of the future of ISKCON. In regards to the women in ISKCON question I
have a very interesting paper written by Jyotir-mayi Devi Dasi, if you are
interested and don't have it already, please inform me on COM and I will send
it to you.

6. A suggestion for our next meeting

My suggestion is that we isolate the different issues in regards to social
development. Maybe we can assign those issues to certain devotees who are
intelligent and concerned so that they can prepare little essays or speeches
about the different considerations within those issues. Then we have to
prioritize certain issues. Then we have to define our goals in these different
areas (for instance grhasthas, brahmacaris, preaching, congregation, the
second generation, women, varnas etc.) Then we could describe the obstacles,
and finally we should have practical guidelines how to overcome the obstacles.

And to make sure that all this does not remain well intended talk, we have to
assign different teams of devotees who work on the issues. I volunteer for the
congregational preaching.

7. Important final words

Please accept these comments as my two-cent worth of opinion. In offering
these comments I am well aware of my shortcomings. I do know that you have
much more experience, and therefore much more vision. Please consider me only
a well-meaning helper of yours, who is very interested to help making this
movement more attractive for those who live in it and those millions of
conditioned souls who desperately need Krsna consciousness.

Let me say once again that I am really convinced that the congregation will be
a very important area for developing ISKCON's social structure, for two
reasons:
1. There is a lot of manpower and laksmi to be utilized and
2. Almost all of the devotees who are now in the temple will one time become
congregational members. So if we prepare the field for them they will harvest
the nice fruits and be eternally grateful.


Amavasya devi dasi writes:

We have many devotees who are quite familiar with the philosophy but still
immature in their social behavior and understanding. During the meetings with
you about social structure will be maybe not enough time to ask such
questions. And no one can help us better than you in this regard. Isn't it
effective for us to have first some better understanding about what is what,
to prepare such meetings? There are still many explanations required. For
example:

-Women can protect women on the mental platform by educating or giving some
understanding. For this we have still to ask you about the proper situation of
female devotees in this movement.

-Men have to protect the dignity of women. The desire to protect someone
comes from appreciation. Who appreciates some mental down dragger from the
path of spiritual life? In the Education conference on Com was recently
a discussion about how to beat wives and school children, to "tame and
educate" them. It was so disgusting that Bhakti Tirtha Maharaja and Urmila
prabhu had to stop it.

-I think we need some better understanding about what it means to protect
brahmanas, that we can develop brahminical standards. Almost no one is advanced
enough to take up the position of a real brahmana in an unprotected situation.

-Devotees with vaisya abilities should be more conscious about their duty to
serve the society, as some, but not enough, already do, and employ grhasthas
who are not able to have their own independent business. As long as we have no
understanding of how to protect and respect sudras, nobody wants to take up
these humble services.

- Vaisnava culture is the culture of the heart. If we have this, the next
generations will happily accept it. But they will not believe us as long as
they are without a practical vision and we are quarreling, being confused,
frustrated, and not gentle to them.

What can we do to overcome misconceptions? What will be the use of making some
plans to develop a social structure if we have wrong ideas of what it actually
means? Should we ask you questions about social structure and Vaisnava culture
in your Q&A conference or in the NSDG conference? What can I do or shall I not
try to do something for the social development?


Comments by Padmanabha das:

1. DOUBTS

I actually cannot imagine that there are any doubts about the efficacy of
Krsna's Varnasrama System. I see hesitation, but mostly I think that this
hesitation comes from fear that the system WILL work, that the VA system will
take over. I see that the mentality of some of the preachers is NOT to
support the larger projects by encouraging people to move in that direction;
but rather to maintain and expand their individual project as much as
possible. This is of course connected with the mode of passion, but it also
shows a lack of vision - a lack of faith in Krsna. I see in general a kind of
disease here in this zone, that some devotees have the mentality that, "Only I
am actually qualified to preach. If I turn this person over to someone else,
he'll certainly get lost." Again showing lack of faith - lack of understanding
that Krsna will arrange different situations for each of us at different
times, according to His perfect understanding of what each one needs. This
two-fold problem (1) the narrow-mindedness concerning one's own preaching
abilities and (2) the concern about one's own project, results in a fear of
the VAD system.

Sri Visnupada said: "The manager may be superior to the brahmana because of
his devotion, but his will still act according to ksatriya principles."

Maharaja Yudhisthira is a wonderful example of this. A most elevated devotee
acting as a king, pure devotee - nothing to do with the mode of passion, but
still acting as king, warrior, protector. But I see devotees who are thinking
that if we get purified, freed from tamas and rajas, then I become a brahmana
and can take sannyasa, but Maharaja Yudhisthira didn't do this. He treated the
brahmanas as superiors. When he was once given the responsibility to chastise
one brahmana, he refused, saying that he was not qualified and gave the duty
over to Dronacarya. So this is the example from the sastra, but I see people
are thinking that if we can make some real progress in devotional service then
I can become a brahmana. This thinking is simply the mode of passion - desire
for designation. All these things are in any case material designations:
brahmana, sudra, grhastha, sannyasa, etc. All bodily designations. Caitanya
Mahaprabhu showed this especially in His lila. There were fully realized
sannyasis, there were sannyasis in maya: There were fully realized sudra-
grhasthas. Material designation are simply there for the social order, they
don't describe the heart. As Sri Visnupada said, (the first point he made)
we shouldn't get hung up on these things, we are Vaisnavas and we use these
designations for practical life.

2. PREACHING

As far as the preaching is concerned, we have a "brahminical disease" here in
Germany. It is recognized that the sannyasis and the preachers are in the
front line along with the book distributors, because they are all bringing the
message. So there is a certain prestige associated with these positions. The
preacher is thus placed on the same level as the book distributor, but is not
necessarily subject to the same physical tapasya. This recognition as a
preacher-brahmana is too important for some people. As Sri Visnupada mentioned
at the very beginning of the seminar, that we shouldn't get all upset about
having some specific designation; that we are all Vaisnavas, simply using
these designations to maintain the proper social order; but because I'm still
in the mode of passion, I feel the need to have a designation which is higher
than that of the others - in ISKCON that means brahmana-preacher. Therefore we
have this disease here that somehow or other I must be engaged in a so-called
brahminical activity. Obviously, anyone in this movement can preach. We have
had for example many nice experiences over the years on the farm with our
farmers - that they simply do their farming and they meet people in the
neighborhood and establish nice relationships with those neighbors - not by
trying the "preach" as we normally understand it; simply by being a devotee
and dealing with that person on the level they understand.

I just don't see so many qualified preachers here. I am not very satisfied
with the preaching in this country because of this. People are designating
themselves as preachers and causing disturbances. They themselves are not even
happy. Sri Visnupada mentions this - you cannot be happy if you don't accept
your proper position (Krsna also says the same thing). I don't mean that these
people shouldn't preach, but they shouldn't artificially try to be brahmanas.
Everyone should become expert in his field, become happy and then whomever
they meet will be effected.

3. DO THE NEEDFUL

I personally have a problem with our large projects, which are suffering under
lack of qualified people, specifically qualified managers. Manager means
ksatriya and ksatriya means protector. We see projects being managed by people
who don't understand this first principle of ksatriya duty - protection. They
are managing with other motivations and because of that lack of qualification,
they are in the wrong position, because they are in the wrong position they
are frustrated, because they are frustrated, the way they deal with others
will be offensive. They are not able to inspire others, rather they will
destroy the enthusiasm of others. Sri Visnupada said that these seminars are
for the leaders. The leaders are the problems. Are the leaders ready to accept
the VAD principles? That's my doubt. Are the leaders ready to accept their
qualities, their varna and asrama and to remain within the appropriate
boundaries. VAD means surrendering - no longer pretending to be this or that.
Through VAD I can become happy, but I can't pretend anymore. This is the doubt
that I have.

4. DEITY STANDARD

Take the farm as example. Here is a project with no money. The farm cannot
support anyone. Here is my personal experience. My wife and I tried to
surrender to the Deity worship; but, because the temple gives no support for
such service, neither financially nor psychologically, the strain became too
much. Thus we both had serious physical problems as well as debts. So we
are no longer doing the needful, we are doing what we can. We are putting in
fewer hours of service. We have no choice, we are too old and tired and sick.
We cannot do the needful anymore. The point is that our society is not yet
ready to support the Deity worship; therefore we should recognize this and
adjust the standard accordingly. Especially here in Germany there are
practically no pujaris or cooks. The mentality here is to go out and influence
people, go out and do something big. There is little room here for Deity
worship. As it stands now on the farm most devotees in the puja department are
fried-out, everyone is sick. Every pujari that has been on the farm for a
significant amount of time has some chronic illness - overwork, financial
stress, no support, etc.

As far as the moral support is concerned, how can one expect moral support
from someone who is weak because he himself is not properly situated and thus
frustrated with his own life. Even the size of the project itself is a
problem, the character weaknesses play their role of course but the magnitude
of the project simply multiplies the weaknesses.

I suggest (before it's too late) an immediate reduction in the Deity standard
on the farm. Install no new murtis in any project until solid financial
situation is established (estimated length of time 75 years).

5. RESPONSIBILITY

Sri Visnupada mentioned this word many times. He even gave a specific list of
responsibilities, beginning with responsibility to one's self. This means
ultimately accepting VAD principles. It means, that even if those around me
are not following their dharma, I will follow mine. This means that ultimately
I will win. There are wonderful examples in the sastra of this. In Bg it is
also stated that following one's dharma one can become happy. Of course if you
follow your dharma and connect that with Krsna, you become blissful. But we
are not even following our dharma - I myself am surrounded by devotees who are
not even satisfied, what to speak of blissful. Manu describes teja. Teja, this
word describes the power which comes from austerities. Manu says that teja
begins with following one's dharma, performing one's duties. This means varna
and asrama; if we act properly according to our social position we get power.
We see this skipping here, playing some other role because of the prestige
available. This coming from the mode of passion, which ruins everything. We
simply have to accept the qualities we have. As Sri Visnupada said, Krsna has
given these qualities, we simply have to accept them and use them for Krsna.
The big joke here is that everyone else anyway knows who I am, everyone else
knows what my qualities are; but I'm spending a lot of energy to maintain some
image which doesn't exist - only in my own mind, but everyone else knows
what's what. If I waste energy playing this foolish game, I cannot be happy.

He also mentions children. These are the people who are the most dependent
upon us. If I'm acting properly according to my qualities, that's the best
thing for my children. Imagine how confused a child will be if the father is
playing some game, pretending to be one thing but having the qualities of
another. How will this child be able to relate to his father? He cannot.
Everything is blocked. A child who has a weak relationship with his father
will have difficulty finding his direction; just as a child with a weak
relationship with the mother will have problems with honesty. What to speak of
the child, how can the wife relate to her husband? He wants to be treated in
one way, but his actual desires and qualities are something else. So she
cannot have any relationship with such a man. So she cannot be a proper wife,
he does not allow her to be a proper wife. He is destroying the whole family.
Sri Visnupada says that it is love which holds the family together and makes
it strong; but the love is being blocked by this unnatural game-playing - This
is a "devotee" phenomena - the karmis don't have this. Everything is being
blocked by this game playing; and then we hear strange philosophy that I only
need Krsna and guru - complete non-sense - kanistha adhikari; Krsna is the
last one to come into the heart - first Vrndavana has to be there and that
means lots of devotees.

Wife or husband: If I cannot fulfill my responsibility toward my spouse there
will be no basis of civilization in our yatra; but we are still being
discouraged from this by the preaching here in Germany. Women are maya.
Children are maya. In the last class that I heard from Sacinandana Swami he
said that grhastha asrama is a deviation from devotional service. He's the
most important preacher in Germany; but how can I take this seriously? This is
creating (or better said maintaining) an artificial duality in Germany. If I
talk to my wife, then I am in maya. If I show some affection to my children,
others will think I'm in maya; so let the women take care of the children -
they're all in maya together. Let me ignore my family and then everyone will
know that I'm Krsna conscious.

6. PROTECTION OF WOMEN

When I was 12 years old and was attached to some girl, I didn't want anyone to
know it. In order to cover up my feelings (my lust) I used to do stupid
things: pull her hair, steal her book or throw a snowball in her face. In this
way everyone was to understand that I'm not attached. For twelve-year-old boys
this is normal behavior; but I see men in this movement 30 or 40 years old who
are still doing this. They are still thinking that women are basically here
for sense gratification, but that sense gratification is not allowed. I
certainly don't want anyone to know that I'm attached; so I simply beat up the
women. Not physically of course, but mentally I will beat them up. That's
allowed. If they complain, who will listen? Everyone knows that women are
maya, or even if they are trying to be devotees, they're MENTAL. This is an
interesting word. MENTAL. What does it mean? This word belongs to a list of
ISKCON words, which don't have to have a specific meaning - it's therefore a
good mayavadi word. Women are mental and therefore we don't have any
particular responsibility toward them. I will suggest a definition for mental:

Mental means that someone is not yet satisfied in his or her position and
doesn't yet know how to improve that situation.

Now, with this definition I will agree that most of the women in this movement
are MENTAL; but I will also maintain that most of the men in this movement are
mental. In other words, I'm saying that anyone who is not properly situated
MUST be mental. So, what is the proper situation for a woman?

Here we can expect many men to be thinking mostly in terms of chastity,
humility, service to the husband and guru, etc. Do you see how one-sided this
is? These are the responsibilities of woman; but responsibilities are only
half of the picture. What else does the Veda say?

Women must be protected and respected.

What's the actual situation in ISKCON? Women fulfill basically two functions
in our society. First, they take over the role of the second-class citizen.
Every material society has it's second class citizens. They are necessary for
me because I, in my weakness, require someone who is lower than me. I feel
better than someone and that satisfies my foolish pride. "But the sastra says
that women as less intelligent," says the fanatic. So how do we understand
this statement? First of all, no living entity is LESS intelligent. The monkey
has so much intelligence for getting his banana, that if you have to compete
with him on that level, you will starve to death. The statement that women are
less intelligent refers ONLY to the ability to differentiate between matter
and spirit. It obviously doesn't mean that she cannot run a business, manage a
project, preach Krsna consciousness or anything else.

The second role played by the women in our movement is that of the sense
object. Of course I'm not allowed to touch, but I can play all the other
games, and enjoy on the so-called subtle level. This way I can still enjoy a
little or even get rid of my frustration (para-duhkha-sukhi). Especially
non-married women are the best targets, because no-one will dare defend them
out of fear of loosing their reputation.

So, respect and protection don't exist for the woman in ISKCON. Therefore they
are frustrated, therefore they are mental. Just as mental as the sudra who has
to make business or the vaisya who has to manage, etc.

Now what about the women's-libers. That IS actually a problem, because it is
the false solution. False solutions either create new problems or make the old
one's worse. The fanatic will say that women shouldn't have any position at
all because it isn't Vedic; but I answer, it's also not Vedic to send the
ladies out on SKP, it's not Vedic to have 5 ladies from different families
living in the same room and the main point here anyway is that we want to
engage people according to their qualities - that's Vedic. Now, I want to be
properly understood here when I use this term women's-libers. I want to
differentiate between a woman who is given some special responsibility, maybe
even a title, because she has the appropriate qualities, and the woman who is
pushing for some position, thinking that by having some position (similar to
the men) she will become happy. No woman will be happy in this movement until
she feels respected and protected and no woman (or man) will feel happy having
a position for which she is not qualified. These are eternal principles. I
think that some devotees don't believe that the VEDA is eternal. The Veda
gives rules for material world, but the principles are eternal. Therefore we
can profit by accepting them. A woman cannot be satisfied until she is
respected and protected. Now here there are three relevant quotes from MANU
SAMHITA.

3:57 If the women of the family are miserable, the family is soon destroyed,

3:56 The deities take delight in places where women are respected, but where
women are not respected, all rituals are fruitless.

3:58  Places that are cursed by women who not been have been treated with due
reverence, are destroyed as if struck down with witchcraft.

Most of the managers I had served with over the years have certainly earned
themselves a woman's curse. Actually it's a wonder that there are ANY projects
left in ISKCON. My point here is that, not only are we neglecting these two
responsibilities toward women (respect and protection) but we are also
actually tearing down the whole movement - "all rituals are fruitless" means
no love of God.

Just one more point in this connection. It was at one time standard procedure
in Germany and Switzerland (and may still be popular) to separate married
couples as much as possible, sending the man in one direction and the lady in
the other direction for their services. MANU says separation from the husband
is one of the causes of destruction of women. He puts this in the same class
as drinking alcohol. It seems that our managing techniques have been keeping
us in the DARK AGES. It's no wonder that the general population doesn't yet
take us seriously.

8. GOING AWAY and STAYING

Sri Visnupada says that the relationships don't work, devotees get fried out
and go away frustrated. I'm not being treated properly, others are not being
treated properly, I am even being treated in a way which makes it difficult to
identify any longer with the project. This is a great problem on the farm. I
also don't identify with the farm anymore - I put in my hours on the altar,
but I no longer feel a part of the farm. This feeling pushed many to go away,
but many also stay. They stay because they have some love for their guru, or
because they simply have a higher understanding, or maybe they are a little
stronger. They remain although they are experiencing a situation which is
actually intolerable. They stay, but they are not very satisfied. I live in a
place which is full of depressed people - fired out, tired, depressed people -
you can imagine what kind of effect that has on visitors. Our devotees are
our worst preaching! My point here is that this is an artificial situation.
It's not Vedic to remain where one is not properly treated or respected and
thus an artificial situation is created. King Romapada made some nonsense and
all the brahmanas left and he learned his lesson. We don't have that in
ISKCON, and therefore the learning process for such persons is hampered. They
will simply see that some are staying and feel no reason to change.

The problem is the mode of passion. Very often we in the mode of passion can
only learn something when their is a catastrophe. Because I want to take
credit for all the successes that come, Krsna must finally allow for some
failure and then I have to accept that also as my doing, then I can become a
little humble and maybe learn something. But this process is somewhat blocked
by devotees who tolerate the intolerable.

9. PASSING ON KC TO OTHER GENERATIONS

This was my great hope for some time, that VAD would come into ISKCON, but
then I realized that the leaders were not interested. So, what does this mean
for ISKCON and what does it mean for me? If the leaders are not interested,
then it won't happen; but VAD is Vedic and that means it's eternal truth. It
can make me happy. So, if ISKCON is not going to do it, then I better do it
for myself - for me as an individual. I will take up my responsibilities and
not wait for everyone else. This is how I am trying to live, how I am trying
to direct my family and it's how I preach: Don't wait for ISKCON, do it
yourself and become happy. People tell me that they appreciate this kind of
preaching; because there are a lot of false expectations in terms of ISKCON,
that ISKCON will situate itself and then I'll fit in; but this is backwards
and therefore Sri Visnupada is talking now about these things and putting the
emphasis on the leaders to do it themselves. Each individual has to understand
this for himself and start acting properly. When we get some certain
percentage within ISKCON then it will simply be there, but we can't wait for
others to follow their dharma before we take up our own.

VAD Principles are eternal, they always have worked, they will always work,
and they require no compromise. They are already a compromise between the
spiritual and material principles. As Sri Visnupada explained many years ago:
it is the perfect synthesis of the two principles: spirit soul and the
material situation; but we have forgotten this. No adjustment is necessary.
Just accept as much as possible into your life and watch it work.

In terms of the children, passing KC on to the other generations, I see that
everything is a complete mess. Don't forget we live in Germany. Women are
maya, grhastha asrama is maya, children are maya. The only thing that counts
is my hour plan - how much service do I do and how much laksmi do I bring in.
So there is no interest in my son - he's just a trouble, taking me away from
my service. Now I'm separating myself and my family from this mentality and
therefore I'm also not in any great anxiety about my son, he'll find his
place - if it's one foot inside ISKCON or two, he'll be properly situated.
He's got a good mother, therefore he'll be an honest man. He'll know what
direction he is going and he'll be engaged according to his qualities, so
he'll be happy. If ISKCON can develop something for his education, then fine;
but I'm not making myself (or him) dependent upon ISKCON for such things.

Now here we have to find a definition for ISKCON. We have just mentioned false
expectations in connection with this movement. To have false expectations
means that I don't have the proper definition for ISKCON. This definition has
to be practical, it has to be truth - not what I want ISKCON to be, not how
it could be, etc. How is it really, today? It sounds a little funny I admit,
but just think about it. If you think ISKCON is a horse, how will that work?
If you think that ISKCON is a VAD society how will that work? If you think
that ISKCON is a society of self-realized souls, how will that work? Here is
my practical up-to-date definition of ISKCON which works for me.

ISKCON is a loosely organized society of materialists who understand now
theoretically the actual spiritual purpose of life. It does contain a small
number of people who are not materialists; but among the general membership
there exist the normal of mixtures of the three gunas with all their normal
effects.

10. ELDERS and RESPECT

This I see as one of the greatest problems in ISKCON. First of all, who is an
elder devotee? The one with the older body? The one who's longer in ISKCON?
Such ideas show limited view points. Sri Visnupada perfectly explains who is
elder devotee - one who helps others. Maybe some so-called younger devotee can
help me. Maybe he's had many lifetimes of devotional service. I see more
offenses from above than from below; i.e. I see the problem that some devotees
who think themselves to be in the superior position and expect honor or
respect from the "newer" devotees, thinking they should instruct this new
person in any way they feel necessary.

We see in Srila Prabhupada's example that he didn't demand respect. He
preached in New York and gradually the first devotees understood who he was
and began offering him respect. It was natural because he is worthy of respect
- everything else is unnatural. This also applies to relationships with
friends of Krsna or even with materialists. If they see the attitude, that we
think we are better than they, they will not be attracted. If someone is
forced to respect another out of fear or force, then he will feel cheated and
someday make revolution. Sri Visnupada explained this many years ago.
Therefore, we cannot force respect.

That's only one side of the problem. I don't even see much natural respect for
one another as persons, as human beings. Krsna says we're supposed to learn to
see the Supersoul in each other; but we are not even treating each other in a
CIVILIZED human manner. I see more envy among devotees than I witnessed as a
professional musician - a field bubbling over with false egos. Why is it so
bad amongst devotees? Simply because of not being properly situated, not
accepting my position - ultimately this game playing is at fault which doesn't
bring any real peace.

11. GOAL OF THIS COMMITTEE (MEETINGS)

Here I would like to mention one of my greatest frustrations in ISKCON. It was
the Regional Council. The basic attitude there was that we would partially
replace Sri Visnupada - take up some of his burden and do some managing; but
this was a joke. Many times we made decisions after ten hours of discussion,
sent our resolution to him only to get back a reply life, "You can't do that."
or "You have no right to do that." or "You forgot one important detail and
therefore that's all non-sense" So the idea of replacing Sri Visnupada was a
joke. So I considered the function of the RC. The only conclusion for me was
that it was an opportunity to work on ourselves, get a little purified and
thus be able to bring something positive back to the temples; but every time
I tried to move in this direction, someone screamed "VAISNAVA ETIQUETTE!" Then
something interesting happened. Sri Visnupada formed the high court for these
German speaking countries and suggested to the AC Bhaktivaibhava Swami, Krsna
Ksetra Prabhu and myself as the members. There was an instant uproar that we
didn't want Padmanabha. All kinds of people we suggested as a replacement for
Padmanabha and I tried to push in the direction of discussion. I was thinking
that this was anyway what I wanted and, if I had to be the first to get worked
on, then fine. But it never happened. They were simply cowards and it never
came to any discussion. Finally Sri Visnupada himself made some compromise and
the issue was finished; but I was completely disgusted and for me the
situation was clear. Nobody wants to do this kind of work and that is now my
great doubt. I don't want to be on a committee which simply makes some rules
for social behavior (although we need a little of this in order to combat the
anarchy in ISKCON); but I would be interested to work with others in this very
personal direction; because if the leaders don't start acting like civilized
human beings, then there is no hope. So these are my two doubts: (1) Are the
leaders of this German yatra themselves interested to make this step? And (2)
because I am so old and tired that I have no patience for this game playing
and that I would be too heavy for working together on such a project. That
means I want to hear from the others what my problems are; and I want the
right to discuss the problems of others especially without this hiding behind
so-called Vaisnava etiquette. I have experienced great disappointments with
most of the members of the national council. I have important philosophical
differences with them. So, I will admit that I have already given up hope for
any change in this country during my lifetime and thus I have programed
myself to tolerate; because Sri Vamanadeva says that I can increase my
strength through this situation. So for me the external situation is both
nectar and poison. I can simultaneously be disgusted and still gain strength -
even mystical powers - by simply tolerating.

Actually I see no need for a committee for social development, at least not at
this stage of ISKCON's development here in Germany. I see generally the
attitude: "I am willing to help others if I have the appropriate title and
recognition." As far as I can see the only real hope lies in the individual
and his willingness to progress. This attitude will bring him (through
Paramatma's direction) into contact with others of similar attitude and thus
small groups of devotees will gradually build and they will bring more and
more the Vedic principles into their lives. Therefore I do not really see the
need for any committee in this regard. I see so many committees in Germany
that already exist, but which have no effect on my life or on the lives of
the devotees in general. I see lots of titles; but I see no effective
leadership. We need people in this movement who simply understand Bhagavad
Gita and who start acting properly and this is what will work.

For example, we never had a committee for SKP in this zone. Rather certain
advanced devotees described the importance of that activity and gave the
example, thus SKP is established here. Similarly we don't need a committee
for social development, we simply need to understand these principles and
start living.
