

The following is a letter and transcribed Seminar given by Srila Harikesa
Swami in Abentheuer, Germany, in the summer of 1996.

Dear Maharaj or prabhu,

Saturday, June 15, 1996


Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada. Enclosed
please find an edited transcript of a recent Social Structure Seminar held in
Abentheuer, Germany, with the leaders of the German yatra.

Copies of this seminar are going to all members of the GBC Social Development
sub-committee, all Temple presidents in my zone, and some selected leaders in
other parts of the world. The purpose of sending this document is to share
with you my vision of the social structure needed in ISKCON and to get
feedback from you as to what you think should be added, changed, or expanded.
I would like to have a very nice document, with all your extra feedback, ready
by the GBC Social Development Seminar in Abentheuer, at the end of September.

Please read this at your leisure, and comment on it as you like. Please share
this paper with others who are intelligent and who might have something to say
about this subject matter. Everyone should feel free to copy it as they like
and distribute it as well. You can write comments as little or as much as you
like and send it by post to Dharmaraj das, c/o BBT, Korsnas Gard, 14792
Grodinge, Sweden, and he will make sure it gets to me and afterwards to the
others in the GBC committee and other committees as well. The German National
Committee should meet and share views on these subjects sometime in July and
August.

I personally feel this subject is the most important for ISKCON at present and
we have a responsibility to the society and the world, to properly establish a
social structure within ISKCON.

Thank you very much for your cooperation and I am eager to hear from you and
share views with you and the others as well. I hope this meets you well and
happy.

Your servant, Harikesa Swami

Copies to: Jayapataka Swami, Suhotra Swami, Sacinandana Swami,
Bhaktividyapurna Swami, Bhaktibhusana Swami, Ravindra Swarup das, Bhurijana
das, Sesa das, Vegavan das, Yogindra das, Manidhara das, Aja das, Akhanadadhi
das, Visvadeva das, Brahma Muhurta das, Priyavrata das, Markandeya Rsi das,
Janesvara das, Locan das, Ciranjiva das, Manasacandra dd, Kuru das, Tilakanath
das, Saunaka Rsi das, Vaidyanath das, Ekanath das, Diviratha das, Hrdaya
Govinda das, Arcana dd, Daya dd, Sairisi dd, Tirthanga das, Guru Sakti das,
Gauracandra das, Padmanabha das, Jiva das, Rudra das, Amavasya dd, Mahadeva
das, Arjuna das, Syamananda das, Caksu das, Dayalu das, Aksaya das, Daruka
das.


Social Development, Preliminary Seminar Abentheuer - Harikesa Swami

The purpose of this discussion is to bring to light some of the problems
facing ISKCON today and to suggest a means to bring about a solution
acceptable to everyone. Although ISKCON is a highly developed preaching
mission, and although we certainly know the conclusion of the Vedic
literature, we are still immature in our understanding of people and their
needs. One simply has to look at the state of the grhastha asrama and the fate
of the Gurukula children to see that something is lacking in our society. I am
proposing that this lack is a lack of social structure which can be corrected
by accepting the varnasrama structure and utilizing some basic common sense.

Presently in ISKCON we don't have a normal situation. Whenever a social
situation is not normal in material life, scholars and researchers are
employed by the government, or privately funded by grants from the economic
community, to find out what is wrong and come up with plans how to resolve the
difficulties. Usually this is done through the Universities, although at
present there are also research institutions dedicated to problem solving. In
the Vedic times the government would usually resolve most of the social
problems by engaging learned brahmanas who would, by dint of their sastric
understanding and realized wisdom, correct the disturbances by directing the
King to enact certain programs in the society. Although almost all problems
could be resolved by the close teamwork of the brahmanas and Kings, the
citizens of the state still had a major role to play in problem solving within
society. What that role is will also be discussed herein.

It is my presumption that if there is a functioning social structure within a
community, there are less social problems to resolve from above. This will be
discussed more later on, but briefly stated, when a community is strong, its
members are restricted in their behavior by the social customs prevalent at
the time. The very fiber of the social structure will keep many problems at
bay primarily through the education one receives through the family and
friends. One example will clarify what I mean. Presently, in the Western
countries, illicit sex is the dominant feature within society. During the
warmer months, people are careless in covering their bodies and this inspires
lusty desires within the heart. Young girls and boys associate freely and thus
they learn quickly how to satisfy their lusty desires without fear of social
reprisals. However, in India, even today, the women remain well covered. Boys
and girls are not allowed to freely intermingle, thus reducing the heat of
passion considerably. I know that the Indians also have lusty desires and that
things are degrading rapidly there, but this example can help us see how, by
the creation of socially accepted patterns of activity, one can prevent many
problems within the society.

Social structure is something which is given from above. The Indian social
structure, or the remnants of it which are fast becoming lost in modern times,
comes from the varnasrama system. This system was created by Krsna for the
benefit of the people in the material world. This system was implanted within
the human society. The great sages and saintly brahmanas were entrusted with
the duty to make sure the people understood, from early age, that they lived
in a society which made certain demands on its members.

Certainly people would discuss social affairs in the privacy of their own
homes, but the basic and important elements of society were given by the
brahmanas and enforced by the Kings. Within ISKCON we have a society without a
real social structure. Our Krsna conscious Vaisnava system has been placed
practically on top of the Western society and its values. This was done by the
expertise of Srila Prabhupada who knew the art well of presenting Krsna
consciousness to the Westerners in terms that they could accept. For example,
he allowed women to live within the asramas and temples. Although he separated
them from the men, naturally there was intermingling which sometimes brought
about fall-down and anxiety for the temple managers. We can see from this one
example the difference between ISKCON in the West and ISKCON in India where
there are the remnants of the varnasrama system. Because India itself has a
more acceptable social structure, due to its being a remnant of the varnasrama
system, ISKCON in India also has a social structure. This we see in Mayapur.
Our Mayapur project has a Bengali social structure. The moral principles there
are quite high as compared to the West, although certainly there are deviants
as everywhere, but the general principles are very upright and in the mode of
goodness. We have seen that Westerners there often have difficulties adjusting
to the Bengali village type social structure because it doesn't relate to them
properly. Therefore there is a problem in the interrelationships between the
Westerners and Indians. But because we are all Vaisnavas and the local
devotees accept that, it's not that much of a problem.

Here in the West we don't have a social structure which descends from the
varnasrama system, rather we have a Judeo-Christian culture with mixed values
and ideals based on economic development and the pursuit of domination on all
levels. The main goal of modern life is to maximize sense pleasure and
minimize pain. Devotees usually have higher ideals than is the norm in the
modern society and generally we have rejected our materialistic social
structure. This was a definite factor in the minds of those devotees who
joined ISKCON in the '60's and '70's but I am not so sure if it is as
important a factor today. But still, the very fact that you become a devotee
means you are declaring war against the material energy and that certainly
means a rejection of its ideals. Just as Prabhupada in his youth wore hand
woven khadi as a statement of his rejecting the British, our coming into
ISKCON and wearing the dhoti, sari and tilak is our statement that we have
rejected the material society. That much is clear. However we have not yet
replaced it with a spiritual society that works on all levels of existence. In
other words, we have not yet accepted the varnasrama social system within our
movement and we are feeling some lacking. We lack a social structure that
holds us together and satisfies individuals who have not developed their
complete Krsna consciousness. So long one has not established himself on the
transcendental platform, deriving his satisfaction spiritually, one will
require to supplement his sadhana process with some basic social exchanges
which can fulfill his remaining material desires. If one is too disturbed in
his social life and is agitated by unfulfilled material desires, it will be
harder for him to remain in ISKCON long enough to develop his pure love of
Godhead. Therefore we see that devotees come and go quite rapidly from ISKCON
and this is discouraging even to the highly advanced devotees who are trying
with all their hearts to bring people to the transcendental position.

Some think that, since we are all Vaisnavas, ISKCON is beyond the need for
varnasrama structure; that the varnasrama structure is not relevant for us,
but if this is true, then which social structure is relevant? There must be
some social structure. That's obvious. Either we take the social structure
from the material world and implant that into ISKCON or we take all the value
systems from your land of birth and implant them into ISKCON or we take
corporate structure and run ISKCON like a big business or we take Krsna's
system of varnasrama structure and put that into ISKCON. Regardless of which
direction you want to take, some social structure has to be accepted.

The very fact that we have GBC's and temple presidents and gurus and
sannyasis, house-holders, children, educational system etc., shows that we
have a social structure; but unfortunately it is a little chaotic. It's
chaotic because we haven't accepted the overriding social principles which
allow everything to find its place. Let's take a typical symptom of this
problem, one which is certainly cause for alarm. People come, stay for some
time, get fried-out and go away. Now, we could examine each and every case
individually; but that would only lead to useless material conclusions. What I
would like to do here is to bring in the aspect of descending knowledge. Krsna
has told us that He has given everyone guna and karma, that He has established
the social structure and that it's simply up to us to follow it.

I feel strongly that all social solutions can be found in Krsna's social
structure. Any attempt to devise a new structure cannot work - it will
necessarily be materialistic. Such so-called solutions will only bring the
same problem that the materialistic society has and that means no spiritual
direction and values. The only reasonable course of action is to accept the
already existing structure (Krsna's perfect structure) and try to understand
how everyone fits into that. Then and only then will everything hold together
-- like a chandelier with all the individual pieces fitting perfectly in
place.

So I propose this solution -- to start off adjusting the social structure
within ISKCON by designating the areas of work within the society according to
varnas. There is no need to designate Vaisnavas in a particular varna for that
is against the sentiments of devotees who feel that a Vaisnava is
transcendental to varnas. Srila Prabhupada has also indicated that. Therefore,
instead of designating the devotees according to varna, we can simply
designate the areas of work in ISKCON according to varna and accomplish the
purpose of organizing society according to the proper social system given by
Krsna and allowing devotees to freely move within the social structure until
they find themselves comfortably situated.

Since we all have to work within a social structure, otherwise life remains
chaotic and unsatisfying to all, the Vaisnavas will voluntarily accept some
role within the structure, but instead of the Vaisnava being designated for
life as a particular varna, he will simply have to abide by the rules and
regulations of the varna within which he works. In other words, it doesn't
matter what you are, it matters what you do. For example, a pujari, a priest,
a teacher in the gurukula, a seminar leader or a preacher is recognized as
acting as a brahmana. That same person could also manage, do business if he
had to, or could also wash the floor, because as a Vaisnava, one can take any
responsibility. "Do the needful." We do the needful because we simply want to
serve. If one is requested to take up a service within a particular varna
which one is not yet qualified for, one has the alternatives of either
changing service or developing the qualifications required of that particular
varna. It is not required to have all the qualities of a particular varna
before accepting that kind of service, so long one has the mentality that he
is doing that service for Krsna. If one is acting on the order of his
spiritual master and Krsna, one can do anything required, but if one really
wants to do that particular service in the best possible fashion, one will
also be eager to develop the qualities which are associated with the varna of
that service. For example, it is very hard to be a pujari or a gurukula
teacher for a longer period of time without developing the brahminical
temperament. Thus development of the qualities associated with a particular
service is required for the ultimate success in any specific service.

A social structure is based on responsibility; to one's self, to the spiritual
master, to the Supreme Lord, to your children, to your parents, to your wife
or husband, to your community, to your society. Everyone has responsibilities,
teacher to the student, student to the teacher etc. If one is acting as a
brahmana, one has a responsibility to act according to brahminical standards
and to develop the qualities of a brahmana. If a pujari is addicted to sinful
activities, he is not acting as a brahmana and thus cannot remain in that
position. In order to establish oneself within the society, one must act in a
particular way and manifest the qualities of that particular order. Only then
will it be possible to relate properly with others in the society.

Let us take another example: a temple president or a manager of a department.
This devotee is acting as a ksatriya, as a manager or as a protector. Even
though he might be superior to a brahmana because of his devotion, because of
his role as manager he will act according to the required managerial qualities
and relate as an administrator to others according to their responsibilities.
If, for example, the brahmanas want to give some input into the management
then the managers will accept that with open arms. That's what managers want
-- brahminical input. The brahmanas give ksatriyas instructions concerning the
management. Even if one is wary of receiving instructions from others, at
least every manager is eager for solutions to his problems. The brahmanas, on
the other hand, want protection from the managers so that they can be free to
think and educate the members of ISKCON and the outside world. From this one
example we can understand how it can and should work among all the varnas. We
are all familiar with varnasrama dharma. Srila Prabhupada has explained it a
thousand times. The point I am making here is that we don't have to be
unnecessarily concerned about the designation itself, thinking that I am
"only" this or that and therefore I am inferior. No, we are all Vaisnavas.
But, whatever work we are performing must be done according to the qualities
of that varna and the relationships to the other varnas must be maintained
accordingly. In this way the whole society will run smoothly.

Because we don't understand these relationships between each other, we have
conflict. Brahmanas are not satisfied and they go away. Managers are
dissatisfied because they get no input and don't know what to do. Others feel
lack of protection. So this seminar is an introduction to Krsna's solution. We
have explained these basic sociological points in case there were any doubts
about the varnasrama social structure and how it can work in ISKCON. We're
talking about this now because it will solve the problem.

But, the varnas aren't everything. The asramas are complimentary and assist
everyone in finding a situation within society which is congenial for their
advancement. Just as one must be happily situated by performing a service
which is satisfying, he must also be in the asrama where he will have the most
strength. Srila Prabhupada once said that once the varnas are established the
asramas will follow. Normally speaking, according to the standard varnasrama
understanding, all those who work as sudras should be married, all those who
work as vaisyas should be married, all those who work as ksatriyas should be
married although they may renounce at the end and take vanaprastha. Those who
work as brahmanas can be married or not. They can remain brahmacari and
sometimes take sannyasa directly from that asrama. These are the rules for the
different asramas according to the varnas. It is possible, however, in our
society, that someone may work in a particular varna and remain renounced
despite this principle. All Vaisnavas can accept the renounced order of life.

Let's look at the present situation in the asramas. The brahmacari asrama
seems, externally at least, to be functioning properly. We bring people into
our movement, we designate them as brahmacaris or brahmacarinis and they work
nicely for a while; but then what? It seems that most brahmacaris have
problems within a few years. The main source of the problem seems to be lust
and the desire to marry. As far as the brahmacarinis are concerned, this is
almost always the case. This indicates that we are not actually dealing with
actual brahmacaris, as most of our candidates for spiritual life led a very
sinful life before they joined and it will take quite some time for them to
overcome that conditioning. It seems inevitable that most will sooner or later
enter into the grhastha asrama, either in ISKCON or out.

Actual brahmacari life should begin from birth or from the age of five years,
lasting up until about 25th year. At that time the brahmacari may get married
or take sannyasa. Those who join ISKCON from a very sinful background, in the
West at least, are not really brahmacaris in the strict Vedic sense of the
term since they are usually struggling very much with their senses as they
strive to maintain celibacy. Most break the rules. This is not real
brahmacarya. The real brahmacari is the son of a grhastha who is within the
culture of at least varnasrama dharma or who is a transcendentalist. It again
becomes apparent that there is a great burden of responsibility on the
grhastha to make sure his male children are properly learning the austerity of
brahmacari life for their future benefit. Since the grhastha asrama is the
source of the future devotees in ISKCON, we should discuss the importance of
this asrama and of raising first class, Krsna conscious children to take over
the responsibilities of the future generations who will actually make ISKCON
great. Thus the grhastha asrama is one of the most important areas for
development in ISKCON, for it has been neglected and considered a mere burden.
If we consider the future of the society, we can see that it is made up of the
children of the present society. Thus every intelligent civilized country in
the world take great care to educate and protect its children for they are
factually the future of the world.

A major problem in ISKCON today is understanding how to increase the happiness
of the individual members from the social point of view. We know the art of
spiritual happiness, yet it is apparent from the turn over rate of new
devotees in ISKCON that not everyone can accept such spiritual happiness as
their life and soul. Therefore to integrate the majority of candidates into
spiritual life in a means congenial to their capacities, we require to have a
satisfactory social structure which will accommodate everyone's material
requirements. One of the most important aspects of this integration is
situating the children in valuable and meaningful works in ISKCON. When our
children finish their school, they should be able to enter our society, know
exactly what their position is and feel perfectly comfortable with that
position. As long as one is not a pure devotee, one requires a certain amount
of social interaction to be happy. Everyone needs associates, friends and
neighbors. This is especially true for children. Every child needs friends.
Every child needs association, including older persons whom he can respect as
superior. Not only children, but those who are situated in the grhastha asrama
also generally require these things.

This, therefore, is one of the main themes in this presentation: the grhastha
asrama and the boys and girls who take birth within our society. Every society
is concerned with the progressive stages of life from birth up to the point of
renunciation or death. This is the point of the Vedic samskaras. The grhastha
brahmanas should be very much concerned with these progressive stages of life
and the ultimate benefit available to the ISKCON society when the grhastha
asrama is properly functioning and the society is well balanced. Since the
vanaprastha and sannyasa asrama are stages of renunciation of the grhastha
asrama, it also seems to follow that well balanced sannyasis are also best
generated from well balanced grhasthas.

If we develop communities and villages wherein large numbers of grhasthas can
live peacefully and fruitfully, then we can turn over the management of these
projects to the householders as they will know best their own needs and goals.
The sannyasis and brahmacaris should be simply engaged in preaching either
through traveling or in preaching centers. These renunciates, as well as the
GBC men and senior devotees, should give overall direction and vision to the
society. Management affairs are not really the business of the sannyasis. As
sannyasis are generally the older men in society who have renounced the
traditional social responsibilities, we should largely depend on the younger
grhasthas to manage ISKCON. Ultimately we (like any other society) have to
have a system of turning over the keys of the society to the younger
generation. That means educating them, setting a proper example, and allowing
them to develop.

The importance of this aspect of the preaching mission should not be
underestimated. We must pass down the culture of Krsna consciousness to the
next generations as we have received it from Srila Prabhupada. If we do not do
this, then the cultural mission of Srila Prabhupada will become lost or
watered down by outside uncultured invasions of sense enjoyers. Sometimes we
don't really consider these children in our society to be very important. We
think that we can make new devotees and thus increase sankirtan and it really
doesn't matter whether these children are educated or not. This is a huge
mistake. This kind of neglect will guarantee ISKCON's remaining a society of
mainly neophytes for a long time. First we need to cultivate these children by
proper birth practices, so that they will be born with proper consciousness
and later be able to take up leadership roles in the society. Prabhupada said
this so often -- they are to be the leaders of the society. But what happened?
They got a little reading, writing, arithmetic, many mantras, and something of
the philosophy; but the learning didn't relate to them as individuals. Even
though vaguely educated, they couldn't find their position in our society and
they had no vision of their future. In this regard our movement is a total
failure. We have not integrated our second and third generation into the
movement, and what to speak of turning over the movement into their hands? It
is a complete failure. We must develop a social structure which gives our
children a vision of where they fit into the society, where they can find
their happiness and satisfaction, where they can progress and help the society
progress, and where they can make a mark for themselves within the spiritual
structure of ISKCON. If we do not do this, then our children will become
unhappy with ISKCON and will see no reason to remain within it. Thus they will
be strung between two worlds as they are not truly karmis neither have they
accepted fully the values of the devotees. This is a great crime and should
not be allowed to continue. It is the duty of every leader in this society to
find a place for the youngsters in ISKCON. If this means that we must create a
social structure which allows easy access for the next generations, then let
us do it. The varnasrama structure offers an optimal arrangement for the
integration of future generations into the society.

How does one give over a culture to the next generation? The first point is
that the parents are the first gurus of the children. The children look up to
the parents as if they were guru; they generally accept the parents as
absolute authority. Of course they may rebel a little here and there, but in
general they accept. Thus the parents have a great responsibility (again this
word 'responsibility') to protect their children by teaching them Krsna
consciousness. They have to teach them the philosophy and culture of Krsna
consciousness. They have to teach them that they're not the body, they're
spirit soul, eternal servant of Krsna. Sometimes children don't realize these
things because they are not convinced. Just because they have heard it,
doesn't mean they know it; but if they hear that from their parents and see
that the parents are living that philosophy (yet still caring for the family
and loving their children as they should), they have a better chance of
understanding it. This applies of course not only to the parents, but to the
grandparents as well. Now, nobody in this room is a grandparent, but some day
you will be and at that time you can fulfill a very important function in
society. It is seen in Vedic culture how grandmothers are especially
important. They teach the children philosophy, stories from the sastra. They
teach about the great heroes from the past, like in the Mahabharata.
Grandmothers have a very important influence on the children, because they
have nothing else to do. They don't have to take care of the house or do much
work, so they just talk all the time. If they talk about Krsna, the children
pick it up very easily; and if there are any grandfathers around who have not
taken sannyasa, they can fulfill a significant function by also helping their
sons and daughters through the struggles of the grhastha asrama and showing
them how to be a good husband, wife, father or mother.

In India they have what's called the joint family. Every one in the family
lives in the same house or in the same block -- the father, the mother, their
children and all their childrens' wives and all their childrens' children.
That's very good because they take care of each other all the time. The
grandparents are there caring for everyone and when the grandparents die the
eldest brother leads the family. In this way the family stays very close
together and is very strong. They never have to worry about the children.
There is always someone to take care of all the children thus the parents are
not so restricted in their actions and can be more flexible in their
activities; for instance, they can render more service in the temple if they
so desire. The children have association with their family members, they can
play with other children in the family, and they learn from elderly family
members. They also have a home temple and everybody worships together. That's
the ideal situation. That's the way it was. The Pandavas all lived together in
the same palace. This joint family is sastric. It's perfect.

Ultimately, it is love which holds the family together. We may think that this
kind of love is simply something material. That's true; but it's also
spiritual. Ultimately it is spiritual for in ISKCON we are taught to love
people because they're spirit souls. Of course a child doesn't understand the
higher spiritual principle because he doesn't yet understand that he is not
this body. He understands mama and papa. The parents love the child and the
child loves them. That's natural. It must be there. If they are not loved,
they are varna sankara and will cause so much disturbance in the society.
Parents must love their children. Of course it's actually ridiculous to have
to mention this: 'you must love your children.' We shouldn't have to say it.
Unless there is some twisted understanding, it will automatically be there;
but nowadays we have to say it. Parents must love their children and the
children must feel protected by those parents -- simple things like being held
a lot by the mother and never being dropped. The biggest fear of the child is
that he is going to be dropped, dropped physically and also dropped
sociologically from the parents' mind. It's the biggest fear. Usually that
fear is removed because the parents always take care of the child. He is
always held by the mother and he feels comfortable like that. This is a most
important principle, otherwise the children grow up to be strange. If they are
actually loved and wanted and they had a proper birth, that is, they weren't
conceived out of lust but rather in Krsna consciousness, then they will
actually develop into nice devotees; and, if there is this family structure
around them, the joint family, this development will take place very smoothly.
It is very important that the children feel that they are very important to
their parents. If the children feel that the parents only care about service
to Krsna and have no concern for them, they will come to dislike the religion
of their parents. This is seen in other religious movements as well. Children
always have to feel wanted, and thus it is the duty of the parents to make
sure that the children understand that they are important parts of the family
and that they are the future of the world. Then the children feel safe and
protected and will grow into good devotees without hindrance of psychological
disturbances due to being deprived of the natural love from the parents. And
if this love is there, combined with proper training and the instilling of
spiritual values and goals within the children, then a good family tree is
generated which will gradually form into a dynasty. Proper generation of
progeny, which is protected and trained by the parents, will create dynasties:
dynasties of preachers, dynasties of artists, dynasties of washermen,
dynasties of temple presidents and kings, dynasties of farmers.

In a proper family a spirit soul will take birth who will have the qualities
of that family and they will feel very comfortable growing up within the
culture of the particular dharma of their parents. They will be experts. A
family tradition of experts, that's called a dynasty. It's very important
aspect of varnasrama dharma; perfected persons who perfectly know material
arts because they've learned them in this dynasty. Of course, we do know that
birth is not the deciding factor in understanding the qualities of an
individual, but generally, children can develop the good qualities of their
parents when they are properly conceived. Indeed, they can become more
advanced as well. But we should not go overboard and think that birth has no
relevance in the generation of the material qualities of a child, for it
definitely has a function, and an important one. The family structure is the
pillar of stability in the society. With such family structure the society
remains stable. If you don't have it, society becomes unstable

The basic unit of a society is the individual, but no individual, in normal
circumstances, remains alone. He has his family. Then the next stage of social
understanding are the groups of families. That's called a neighborhood or a
village. Groups of families, each one a stable unit within itself, relating
with each other as friends, as neighbors, helping each other materially,
that's a village. They harvest together. They help each other repair things.
They discuss their problems together. In our ISKCON village communities we are
looking for the day when most mental problems can be resolved within the
society itself where the inhabitants don't have to go to a temple president
and unload their mental problems on him. Unfortunately, in our centers we
now have a situation where being temple president can be hell. In a Vedic
village the men discuss things with the other men and the ladies with the
other ladies. There the family structure and its ancillary features become
the proper basis for the entire society. The ultimate basis is obviously the
individual, but the individual is part of a family. The family is part of a
joint family. The joint family is part of the neighborhood. The neighborhood
is part of a village, and a village is part of a country and so on.

These relationships are so important. They can help you professionally as
well. Among certain professions there are guilds. People with the same work
are connected with each other. Businessmen relate with one another. Cooks
relate with one another. In this way you work with others who have a similar
mentality. Society becomes stronger and stronger. In ISKCON that would mean
that managers can get together and talk, sankirtaners can get together and
cooks can get together and share their experiences. We've done this to a some
slight extent; but it will be much better when there is a family structure in
a community behind it. Then it becomes much stronger. Sometimes we talk about
not having training for our grhasthas. Where should that training come from?
From the grandparents, from the parents, from other grhasthas -- from your
friends. It's actually not required to have extra courses for this, for this
training should naturally come from the society and community. For example,
Prabhupada said, "If the girls are trained up to be chaste and faithful wives
and good cooks, I guarantee them all good husbands." He spoke in this way
because that's the basic requirement for a good wife; but these things are
best be learned in the family.

Also there must be elders. We've got to develop elders in ISKCON. The best
way to develop elders is obviously to grow old. Believe it or not, it is
happening and as we are growing older, we become elders. These elders also
form a very important group in a society. They are the most capable to give
instruction to the young families and citizens simply because they are older
and have so much experience. Of course, this is not to reduce the importance
of scholarly people who are professors in different subjects, they are
absolutely required, but elders can always help the younger generations in
ways not socially possible for distant scholars. We find in all the countries
of the world older persons are managing, because they have a lot of
experience. In villages the elders act like a court sometimes to make
different decisions. People come to them for advice. Therefore we have to
respect our elders.

This is a problem now in ISKCON because in the last ten years we have lost
some gurus. So, some are falsely concluding that no gurus are good. This is a
little foolish. Just because one falls down, doesn't mean that you or I have
to fall down or are unqualified. It happened. It's our history and we have to
live with it; but there is no reason to not respect spiritual masters,
sannyasis, temple presidents or elder devotees both men and women. We have to
respect elders and the elders have to act in such a way as they are worthy of
respect. They have to be learned, they have to read the books of Srila
Prabhupada so they can give proper instructions. They have to help others. If
you want to be an elder and be respected, you have to learn how to help
others. That's what it means to be in a superior position. A temple president
or National Council Member has to be a facilitator for others. Similarly the
spiritual master is the servant of his disciples. Although the disciples think
themselves to be servants of the spiritual master, the spiritual master has to
serve the disciples, care for their needs in many different ways. Temple
presidents have to serve the needs of their members. Sannyasis have to preach
and serve the needs of the people. There are so many needs to be served. We
have to honor this principle. If someone helps you, you will respect him. If
there is no mutual respect, the society is disturbed.

There must be protection in the society, especially of women, children and old
men. This is from the Bhagavatam. Protection of women is very important. That
means that we as managers should not exploit women. If you send the girls out
on sankirtan, you have to take care of them. They must have proper clothes,
they must have proper vehicles, they must have proper insurance, proper
medical care, proper guidance. This must be. We have to protect them;
otherwise they become very disturbed and this effects the temples negatively.
Also they must ultimately get married; but in our ISKCON society it's very
difficult to get everybody married. That's another problem which we can
discuss later on. Probably this can also be nicely accommodated within the
social structure when the society has brahmanas acting as match-makers
creating good couples to strengthen the society. As ISKCON grows and develops
from within, and as the communities grow and develop, unmarried women can find
shelter there. However, we have to be careful that ISKCON does not turn into a
place where large numbers of unmarried women and unmarried mothers seek
protection, as we see often in the holy places in India. Such a situation
would greatly weaken the preaching strength of ISKCON. Protection of women is
ultimately the duty of the husbands, the fathers, the oldest son, but
presently, for better or for worse, it is also the duty of the temple
president or the leaders of departments.

Now, there is a quote here from Srila Prabhupada which I like to share with
you. I find it a very important. He says, "Without the spread of brahminical
culture and without proper protection from the government no social standard
can be maintained properly." So the government has this responsibility.
Therefore, I, as representative of the present government, am giving this
seminar so that we can learn how to protect each other and how to take
responsibility for each other in our society. When we see that someone is
suffering mentally or physically, we should do something to help them by any
and all means. The government should be mainly made of grhasthas, because
grhasthas know the problems of other grhasthas and since everybody is either a
grhastha or a son or daughter of a grhastha, it's much better that the
grhasthas do this work. The brahmacaris and sannyasis should preach from the
temples. This has already been instituted in Almvik. There, the temple is
simply the Deities and the pujaris and the supporters of the Deity worship.
The village is the community of devotees around the temple. The grhasthas
maintain everything there, including the temple. The social and economic
organization of the Almvik project is a theme for a separate seminar. The
point is that the temple should be just for the sannyasis, brahmacaris, and
those householders or ladies who are living a renounced life for the sake of
the preaching mission. Puja can also be done by householder brahmanas, who may
live outside. If a preaching center is organized like that, it's very peaceful
for the renounced order of life.

Now one may ask, 'How do we engage new devotees who come to us?' I have heard
that Srila Jiva Gosvami, in his preaching mission in Vrindavan, had a scheme
to figure out which kind of engagement to give people who joined his movement.
He considered what kind of pious person they were according to the criteria
given in Bhagavad Gita. He considered that one who was looking for relief from
material miseries or diseases is a sudra, one who is looking for wealth is a
vaisya, one who is curious is a ksatriya, and one who is looking for knowledge
is a brahmana. Krsna delineates these four kinds of pious men in the verse
catur vidha bhajante mam janah sukrtino'rjuna... A sudra comes to God for
relief from his miseries. He does not see anything higher in his life. But
because he comes to God for relief, he is considered a pious person. People
who join ISKCON simply for relief of their material miseries can be engaged as
sudras. Obviously those who are looking for wealth are vaisyas, there is no
need to explain this. Ksatriyas are curious by nature. Police are always
asking questions, 'Who are you? What are you doing here? Where are you going?'
and so on. Therefore one who comes to ISKCON asking many curious questions can
be considered a ksatriya and obviously one who is looking for knowledge is a
wise person and can be engaged as a brahmana. Naturally, each of these persons
must be trained in the particular qualities required to do their kind of work
nicely. But it helps to have an indicator of which way to direct a person in
the beginning.

Because people in this age are not very pure in their birth and are confused
in their qualities, these types of designations on the neophytes need not be
forever applied to them throughout their ISKCON life. After all, one can be
trained and can change his motivation by developing knowledge gained through
the books of Srila Prabhupada and the preaching in the classes. But this
framework is good as an introductory means to engaging people who first come
to ISKCON, and it can continue until they display qualities which are of a
different nature. The managers must always be aware of the qualities of the
devotees and engage them accordingly. Then there is the greatest chance of
success in engaging devotees satisfactorily. It is important that the managers
thoroughly interview the person who is first coming to join ISKCON. One must
find out his particular qualities; then he can be lead in the proper direction
from the very beginning.

Of course in the beginning everyone can go through the bhakta course and
everyone can go on sankirtan and distribute books. That's our "military
service". There may however be exceptions. Especially if the person is older
you might not want to send him out because sankirtan is physically very
demanding. The point is that in the beginning you have to spend some time with
that person and find out what his motivations are and thus engage him
properly.

People who join the movement, or become part of ISKCON as congregational
members, who live outside and have to maintain themselves, are in a difficult
situation nowadays. Generally they have to accept some employment and work
under some karmi. This is not the most conducive thing for developing Krsna
consciousness. Such neophyte grhasthas either have to find their own direction
in life, or, if they are lucky, they can be directed by an expert preacher who
has the practical ability to turn their lives into a living example of karma
yoga, or offering the fruits of their activities unto the lotus feet of the
Lord. In any case, the managers have to encourage them in their Krsna
consciousness and direct them how to serve Krsna in their situation.

If an unmarried person joins ISKCON, and later wishes to get married, yet has
no idea what to do, then actually he is not a proper candidate for marriage.
He should first of all understand what he can do, only then should asrama be
discussed. That's the principle: first we discuss varna, then asrama. If one
cannot even understand what is his basic engagement in Krsna's service, then
it is not at all wise that he attempts to live as a grhastha. One who is
confused as a brahmacari will be even more confused as a grhastha and will be
a source of trouble for himself and others. The managers and preachers have to
understand the person well enough to direct him. If a devotee is lucky enough
to have a spiritual master, then that guru can certainly help the devotee
understand what is the best direction to take in life. By talking with the
person and helping him to find the proper activity in his devotional life, the
spiritual master will perform a most important service in ISKCON.

We should very much discourage marriage before one is properly situated. By
neglecting this principle we have had many marriages which simply led to
frustration; frustrated men, upset women and children who don't know what to
do or have no parents who love and take care of them. Therefore the first
thing to be clarified is one's role in the society. If you want to be a
travelling preacher, then you better stay brahmacari. If you want to be a
temple president or do some business or some obviously grhastha occupation,
then you can get married. If you are moving in the direction of some form of
stronger renunciation, including sannyasa life, then obviously don't get
married. It's a little subtle, it takes some expertise to see what is proper
for each individual.

Now we are experimenting with grhastha councils and such things and they may
be required as long as you don't have a community. If you have a community
then separate councils are less necessary for the community itself provides
much of the leadership to its members. If you don't have a community, you have
to get some grhasthas together to perform that function, but obviously the
best situation is to have communities. Grhasthas should live in communities
where there are others of like mind and needs. In such communities, where
there are common goals and values, people can feel secure in the company of
others who they basically trust will act in a way similar to themselves in
different situations. But now, considering that we do not have such
communities, or the existing ones are in a fledgling state, we will have to
search out knowledge and experience from those who have it. Of course the
social structure within the varnasrama system is given in sastra, and one can
do research to understand what is the best means of social organization.

Another point closely related to social structure, education, and the family,
is Prabhupada's ideal that every devotee in ISKCON should become expert at
some particular art. He wanted a society of experts: expert pujaris, expert
cooks, expert managers, expert preachers, expert book distributors, expert
grhasthas. If someone is not properly situated he will probably not become
expert because his heart is not really into his engagement. Therefore, as I
mentioned, the managers have to find out the qualities of a person and help
him to understand which engagement is appropriate. Since people need to
understand these deeper things about themselves through someone they respect,
it is important that the devotee in question respects the one giving him
advice. Thus the spiritual master, manager, or preacher who is engaging a
particular candidate for devotional service, must become expert at guiding
others so the guided can feel that they are in good hands. If one is engaged
in a particular manner and is satisfied in that engagement, then he will
become expert. Most likely he will also become happy, although that is not
necessarily guaranteed in all cases due to the influence of past karma, but
generally speaking, the satisfied worker is happy in his life, if he can avoid
excessive greed and lusty desires. If one cannot become engaged properly, he
most likely will be unhappy for his whole life.

One can, of course, inquire why someone has come to Krsna consciousness,
either out of distress or in search of knowledge -- as it's mentioned in the
Bhagavad Gita; however the most significant, and often overlooked, question
is: 'My dear devotee, what makes you happy?' The manager should consider
deeply when the devotee is answering this question, and probe further until he
has clear understanding of what will actually make that person happy. It is
not always possible for someone to say what will make him happy, for if he
actually knew, he would be able to come to the platform of happiness without
much difficulty. But devotees are generally intelligent and often do have a
good idea of what will bring them happiness. Therefore, if a devotee has some
idea which is different from the manager, the intelligent manager can also let
him try, under supervision of course, to discover if this activity is actually
the right one. If the manager has advised the devotee that his desired
activity may not be the proper one, and later the devotee realizes that
himself or through the help of others, then later he will be more easily able
to approach the manager with trust and ask for the real solution to his
particular situation.

Let me balance what I stated before about developing the qualities of an
individual due to a purer birth. Although that may be true to a large extent
in a purer family, it certainly does not apply perfectly to one who is born
outside of ISKCON. To simply engage somebody according to his birth or the
qualities of his parents is not a good thing. For example, I was born as the
son of the construction contractor, but when I came to the temple I wanted to
preach. I wanted to distribute BTG's and go on the harinam and I wanted to do
that all the time for I was perfectly happy engaged in that manner. Especially
I wanted to go on the preaching programs. It was for me the greatest ecstasy.
I loved listening to introductory lectures and learning how to preach to new
people. I still like that activity the most. But as soon as they found out
that I was the son of a construction contractor and that I also knew how to do
those things, I was immediately put in this service and I hated it. I hated it
because I was not fit for such a work and it had nothing to do with my
conception of spiritual life or the direction I wanted my own life to take,
either materially or spiritually. I didn't like such work when my father
forced me to do it earlier. Of course, I did it for Krsna, and due to my
surrendering to the service I got the personal association of Srila
Prabhupada, so everything ultimately worked out. But we should try to find out
what makes one happy, what one likes to do. Of course some ability must also
be there. Not that one just has some idea to, for example, be a pujari, but is
neither clean nor punctual and can't remember the Sanskrit mantras. No, the
qualities and abilities must be present. Our conception of how we would like
to be engaged according to what we think will make us happy in life, is linked
to the factual qualities we possess. To develop one's ideal of work, one must
first develop the qualities of a particular varna and then work in that way.

We cannot overlook the purely spiritual motivation that every devotee can
possess if they are a little dedicated and advanced. Such a devotee can
surrender himself completely to the spiritual master and offer his life in the
service of his guru's mission. Such persons do not have to understand their
qualities and work and find out happiness in this manner. They can simply
depend on their spiritual master, for it is a fact that the expert spiritual
master knows the heart of the disciple and can engage him according to that
which will bring him ultimate success in spiritual life. For one who has been
given a service by the expert authorities in spiritual life can also be
trained up in the qualities required for success in that particular service.
But such surrender, we have seen, is rare. When it exists it is a shining
example for all devotees to follow, but usually one can only maintain such
surrendered enthusiasm for some time, especially if the spiritual master is
not in close physical proximity to the not yet fully developed sadhaka, or if
some serious conflict develops in his life.

Since Vaisnavas know the art of doing the needful, devotees can act in any way
for the service of the Lord. Any devotee can do anything for the service of
the spiritual master. However, this does not mean that engaging people in this
way is the best thing to do, either for the devotee himself or for the others
in the project. If, for example, there are no ksatriyas and a vaisya has to
take over the management, his vaisya qualities will still be manifested and
the whole temple will be engaged in business. If that person is a brahmana the
temple will reflect that mood; more emphasis on the programs and preaching,
for example. The temple will most likely reflect the character of the person
in charge. Therefore it's our responsibility as leaders to make sure that
people who are in charge are either of a ksatriya or brahminical nature and in
this way the temple will be much better situated as this is the normal
structure in Vedic society. In any case, the temple must be dominated by the
brahminical mood, for the temple programs and preaching programs are essential
for all temples. Farms are a seeming exception to this basic rule since on the
farm the vaisya mood is perfectly acceptable. There we need a king of the
vaisyas like Nanda Maharaja. The farms and villages can conceivably work on
the principle of production; but the city temples and preaching centers have
to be directed toward preaching. However, it is, of course, best for all
ISKCON temples and communities to have a strong morning program and some
preaching purpose for the community's existence, otherwise we might forget why
we are devotees and what is the actual purpose of our lives. Again, regardless
of where one is situated, be it in the city temple or in an agrarian based
village, brahmanas are essential to keep the community focused on the goals of
life, namely service to Krsna and developing love of Godhead.

It has also been my experience that it is possible to manage things in such
way that it works and everyone can be basically engaged according to their
nature. Although it seems often difficult to engage devotees according to
their natures and desires and still make ends meet, it is possible. If, for
example, you need money, you can also do that in a brahminical way by
distributing books. If the books aren't bringing in enough money then
distribute prasadam. That's brahminical activity. You're giving people Krsna
prasadam. If you go out and give people prasadam with the idea that if they
take this prasadam they will go back to Godhead within 700 births, that's
obviously not just business. That's Vaisnava activity, like book distribution.
It's transcendental. Still the point we want to make here is that the
individuals have to be taken care of. They have to be allowed to find
engagement according to their qualities. There has to be a balance between
what is good for the society and what is good for the individual. We need to
move more in the direction of the individual; but that doesn't mean we are now
going to neglect the society. Both considerations have to be balanced. An
adjustment has to be made and that may cause some initial slow-down. It is
just like what has happened in some places in book distribution. If you've
been distributing books by telling everyone that you are collecting for drug
addicts and old-age homes, etc., but you change and start to distribute books
by preaching about the book, then for a short period of time everything will
slow down, but then it will start building up again. It builds up to a level
far beyond that of the old standard for it is truly brahminical activity in
the mode of pure goodness and this naturally increases. Similarly, in this
case, if we start doing everything properly things may slow down externally,
but not much, and only for a short period of time. Ultimately the results will
be amazing.

The first thing you have to do is to talk about it so that everyone
understands the vision. Especially you leaders talk about it among yourselves.
Talk about how to move in this direction. When everyone has the same vision
and are all pushing in the same direction -- it will move in that direction.
If someone here doesn't have that vision you should bring it up now and we
should talk about it.

Bhakti devi: Does this apply to our congregational members?

Harikesa Swami: Not entirely, and not necessarily in the beginning of their
relationship with ISKCON. In some cases, when a person first becomes
interested in Krsna consciousness, they become part of our congregation. When
they become part of the congregation, they can either be ordinary 'members',
or they can become a bhakti branch, or a nama-hatta center. If the
congregational devotees make their home into a center, or develop a center in
their area, then they are directly preaching the mission of Krsna
consciousness and they are well situated as active and valuable members of
ISKCON. If they are family people with children, they will also come to want
to live within a more sociable environment for the sake of the family.
However, since they are active devotees who are dedicated to preaching, it is
possible that they continue in that way, but there may be some lacking in
their lives. If they can compensate for that in some other way, that is good.
But a proper social structure is required by all householders, more or less.

An ordinary congregational member, or one who is affiliated with ISKCON but is
not part of the active preaching mission, can be compared to an interface
between the material world and the varnasrama structure. If we can create a
proper village community, those people will naturally be attracted to live
within that community, for it's much better than being outside. If such
persons would rather stay outside, they are not really convinced about Krsna
consciousness and ISKCON and need more preaching. Anyone who wants to stay in
the material world has something wrong with him. Therefore we have to create a
society, a community, wherein they can find that their material requirements
are met and spiritual success can be attained without too much austerity. We
have to set up the proper society where they can make a business. Prabhupada
started the incense business for example, but there are so many business
possibilities. One can make brass utensils, or clay pots, one can garden and
grow herbs for medicinal purposes or spices. One can bake, be a carpenter, a
plumber or an electrician. One can be a scholar and teach or just write. There
are so many things you can do. There is a place for everybody in this social
structure. Being in the congregation and being connected with both worlds
without being actively involved in preaching, is a temporary position.

Bhakti devi: What should the young grhasthas do until we develop this
structure?

Harikesa Swami: Such persons should stay close to the temple and try to engage
in temple activities as far as possible, and if they are doing valuable
service for the temple, the temple can pay for their apartment.

Bhakti devi: Usually the temples have so much burden that they cannot support
the grhasthas.

Harikesa Swami: Not all the temples. In Heidelberg it worked. The grhasthas
who were doing valuable service for the temple were maintained. Otherwise if
they are strong enough they can make congregational preaching like Hrdaya
Govinda does and in that way maintain themselves very nicely. You don't work
in a factory do you?

Hrdaya Govinda: No.

Sacinandana Swami: But with the painting roll.

Hrdaya Govinda: Sometimes. Not so often. Sometimes.

Bhakti devi: But he is really developed in the service and he also gets
donations.

Harikesa Swami: So, others should learn from him. These grhasthas shouldn't be
so spaced out. They shouldn't get married until their varna or long term
engagement is settled and they have some possibility to engage themselves in
that particular work. If a devotee doesn't know what he is going to do, or
what his prospective wife is going to do and still gets married, everything
will be confused and disturbed. Then of course they will try to blame ISKCON
for their position, which is not correct. Therefore we are talking about
satisfying, long term engagements. First this must be arranged, then we can
talk about living outside and arranging maintenance.

Diviratha: Should devotees go outside into the karmi world and learn or
practice a trade?

Harikesa Swami: That's something for a child of a grhastha when he wants to
learn a particular profession. The proper system would be that he can learn
outside while being under the protection of the parents if he doesn't have to
go too far away for training. However, a brahmacari who has just joined
shouldn't go away to learn a trade. That's inappropriate. Considering the
children of our devotees, there is no need in most cases to send the children
outside. There are experts in ISKCON who can teach them. They should act as
apprentices to those persons. This is the real solution; to act as an
apprentice. Sudras and vaisyas learn specifically through apprenticeship. That
was the system for thousands of years. Whenever someone wanted to learn
something, he went to a master and worked under him as an apprentice. That's
how I learned about construction from my father. I was an apprentice. I was
carrying nails and hammers. He said, "Nail it up." I nailed it up. In this way
you learn.

Diviratha: Isn't that a problem? Here in Germany there is a law that one
cannot act in a certain capacity without having been trained by a recognized
master.

Harikesa Swami: But why do we want to train devotees to work for the outside
world?

Diviratha: Not for the outside world, but he himself or the parents may think
that in order to give him a certain freedom ...

Harikesa Swami: If he wants to have freedom to bloop and work in the outside
world, he can always take a course and because of his developed skills will
within a very short time get himself qualified. That's not a problem. We are
not going to train up workers for the outside world.

Sacinandana Swami: What about our self-sufficiency?

Harikesa Swami: I never used the word "self sufficient". Self sufficiency
means you can provide everything you need yourself. I never said that. Rather,
do like Hariscandra does on the German farm, which is a spiritually self
sufficient community. He is dealing with the neighbors, doing things with
them, sharing things with them. They are becoming part of our economic self
sufficiency and gradually they will become contaminated by our spiritual
philosophy and things will develop in that way. It's impossible to have a
completely self sufficient community and only work internally. A country
cannot survive with such a policy of keeping everything internal. That's why,
for example, Romania and Albania fell apart. They tried to do everything
alone, isolated. There must be trade with other areas who can produce things
that you cannot. Nanda Maharaja was trading with others who were not eternal
associates of the Lord. That didn't affect him. Similarly, we can trade with
the outside world. There is no problem. Therefore I never said that our
communities must be completely self sufficient in the sense that everything
they need they shall produce themselves. There is no such a thing as a
completely self-sufficient community. The outside world has a government. You
have to deal with it. You are never going to be in a place where you can get
salt, where you get all your spices or all your food. Maybe with the food it
is possible, but salt? What about your medicinal needs and all your paper for
printing books? Even in India it's like this. The sandalwood comes from the
Malayan Hills. The camphor comes from another place. The yak tails come from
Nepal. Therefore trade between the different nations is always present. Nobody
ever tried to be completely self sufficient in everything. That's a myth.
Self-sufficiency as Prabhupada meant it is to grow your own food. He said
often, first solve the biggest problem of life by growing your own food. That
should be locally done. Shipping food from far distances is not required. It's
not even healthy. We should grow our own food and solve the basic problem of
life. Food and milk, that's the basic problem. Everything else comes in trade.
That's exactly what they did in Vrindavan under Nanda Maharaja. They grew
their own food and they had their own milk and got everything else by trade.

Sairisi: As we are now at the stage where we are filling up holes because the
development is not there: lack of manpower, lack of understanding, all these
things. Can we expect that in the future this will all develop by itself?

Harikesa Swami: No. No one will stay long enough to fill up all the holes and
make ISKCON proper unless we accept a proper social structure first. That's
why Srila Prabhupada started talking in 1974 about varnasrama college. He
wanted ISKCON to be prepared to deal with giving people knowledge of the
proper social structure and the proper means to live a life of successful
spiritual values and goals. If we do not have this in ISKCON then we cannot
expect people to be committing their lives to remaining in ISKCON under all
circumstances.

Sairisi: Isn't it a matter of trust?

Harikesa Swami: What do you mean?

Sairisi: Many devotees don't have faith that this will develop now, so they go
out and work.

Harikesa Swami: Then we cannot depend on them. We have to work with the people
who we can depend on.

Sairisi: Most of them say, "We don't see any development here. We cannot see
our place here. We don't have the faith. We need money. So we work outside,
otherwise who will take care of us?"

Harikesa Swami: That's just simple economic vision. They are simply thinking
about money. They need some preaching and they need to hear about the
possibilities of developing a social structure in ISKCON. But it requires all
of us to have some faith in the scriptures and to realize that the Vedic
social structure is real, can work, and is relevant to our time. If they can
become part of discussions such as this one, then they can find hope and
eventually their place in the future ISKCON. There is a place for everyone.
Even if you have to work outside, even if you have to sell paintings every now
and then, if you have a superior direction and vision, and you want to worship
the Deity and surrender to the spiritual master, then you will use that
outside work as a temporary status until you are able to fit within a greater
society. Understand? Being an active member of ISKCON engaged in
transcendental devotional service is the permanent situation. If devotees who
are presently alienated from ISKCON understand that we are working on
developing a social structure within which they can also fit, then they will
appreciate ISKCON again and eventually become situated in devotional service
again. At least this is my hope. However, don't expect people who were burned
out in the past to jump right into our vision for they may feel that we are
long on nice words and concepts, but short on practical management to create
the reality of these concepts. It will take a lot of effort from us and a lot
of trust from them to develop the relationship which should be there. But just
because it's hard, doesn't mean we shouldn't try. For new people, there
shouldn't be such a problem. For the faithful like yourselves, it won't be
such a problem. We have to start somewhere. We can't just say, leave it to the
future. We've left it to the future for 30 years. When is that future?

Sairisi: Now.

Harikesa Swami: That's right.

Mahadeva: We consider all the devotees to be Vaisnavas; but what about people
who are willing to be designated as sudra? They act like sudras and in the
area of spiritual standards they don't accept all the regulations.

Harikesa Swami: People who don't accept all the regulative principles should
not live in our communities. They should live outside.

Mahadeva: Are they part of varnasrama dharma?

Harikesa Swami: They may be part of the external varnasrama, but they are
certainly not part of the daivi varnasrama system that the previous acaryas
envisioned for the human society. Our daivi varnasrama means to follow the
four regulative principles, otherwise you are not even on the human level. You
are candala, mleccha, yavana. We don't want such persons in our communities.

Mahadeva: How can the whole world accept these rules and regulation? It's a
far vision.

Harikesa Swami: Don't worry about the world. That's too far away.

Mahadeva: Just Germany.

Harikesa Swami: Yes, we can worry about Germany, but just worry about
Abentheuer to start with. We don't say that everybody has to follow the four
regulative principles all over the world. It would be nice. In a properly
managed kingdom like Maharaja Prthu's, that was the standard, for everybody
followed all the regulative principles. We will not see that here in our
lifetimes, but we are not worried about all the people, we are just trying to
give facility to the Krsna conscious people who are coming to us.

Arjuna: This subject matter is not relevant to preaching centers, because
there will not be such a social structure...

Harikesa Swami: No. It is very relevant, because the preaching centers have to
preach to the people about what they can expect when they join ISKCON. We
don't expect you to develop a community in the preaching center, but if you
are developing a congregation, then you will gradually be bringing these
congregational members closer to ISKCON and eventually, for some, they will
move to the communities which we are establishing. For you, you should work
together with the farm [Nava Jiyada Nrsingha Ksetra]. You must bring people to
the farm, for that is an important part of your preaching. You can also make
sure that the farm is developing according to the social principles outlined
herein.

Bhakti Bhusana Swami: He must also preach this concept, isn't it so?

Harikesa Swami: Yes.

Bhakti Bhusana Swami: Of course this is also a very attractive preaching
tactic.

Arjuna: But if they come and find out it's not like that?

Bhakti Bhusana Swami: You have to be convinced first.

Arjuna: In principle it's logical. But in reality we are quite far away from
that.

Harikesa Swami: You are only as far away as everybody's mind. If everybody's
mind becomes changed, reality is much closer.

Arjuna: But people come to such a community and they see that it's nice but
think it's not for them. They don't have enough trust to make themselves
dependent on such a community. They don't have the vision that it will happen
here.

Harikesa Swami: So only bring those people in who can fit in. Things grow, you
know. You grow also from a baby to an adult. Bring the people who fit in
presently and who will grow with the projects. Maybe you have to cultivate 10
people before you find two who fit in, but that is good enough considering
where we are now. The eight others remain in the congregation and stay in a
temporary state until we grow enough so that they also can fit in. So remember
this rule: it takes ten to make two fit in. Then another ten and we have four
who fit in. The point is to keep on preaching and everything will come. If you
have these ideas in your mind, it will gradually manifest.

Kamsa: Is it better for householders with children to live in big community
rather then in small preaching centers where the children are more alone and
have to have association with karmis?

Harikesa Swami: Yes. It's completely contradictory to my interest in Flensburg
to say this, but it's definitely a fact. Children should live together in
communities with other devotee children. They should be educated by the
parents in the culture of Krsna consciousness within a community of
like-minded Krsna conscious people. They should go to a proper gurukula
school. Then it will be very nice. The children should live at home, and be
protected there. That is the best thing.

Visvadeva: You said maybe it takes ten years for this structure to work. Are
communities the first priority?

Harikesa Swami: Creating and developing viable village communities is
definitely the highest priority at present. We must start these communities in
a fashion which allows them the freedom to develop organically from the basis
of the family within the community. In places where there are no such
communities, then a grhastha council may be formed. Everywhere grhasthas
should speak with other grhasthas about these problems and the suggested
solutions. Let the grhasthas take responsibility for their lives, their
families, and their communities. Speak about the varnasrama social system and
teach others about this system. Do all these things, for by speaking about
these most important aspects of ISKCON development will gradually bring these
ideas into the realm of reality. Someone may say, "Oh, I don't see this social
structure in ISKCON. It is simply words." This may be true, but if one starts
to present an idea which is fertile and which can attract large numbers of
other devotees, then soon it will manifest, especially if it has the support
of the managers. The physical reality of this structure is very near for it is
not difficult to enact. All we have to do is to start engaging devotees
according to their qualities and inclination to work and we are organizing
things according to the varnasrama social structure. Talk to people, find out
their qualities and engage them in that way. If most devotees are satisfied in
their work, then there are very few problems.

Visvadeva: I have a question regarding Prabhupada's statement that he built a
house where everyone can live.

Harikesa Swami: He never said that. That quote came from Mr. Roy, some psychic
sakta who lives in Svarup Ganj in Mayapur. Someone went to him with a photo of
Srila Prabhupada and he said, "This man has created a house that everyone can
live in." That was in 1982. Some other devotee, hearing the story, then added
that the man was an astrologer; then someone else added a "great" astrologer,
the next person added that this all happened during Prabhupada's lifetime and
now I am hearing that Prabhupada said it himself. Pretty amazing.

Visvadeva: At the moment in Germany every center and all the leaders are
struggling with their maintenance ...

Harikesa Swami: Sure they are, and if we want to change that situation, we
have to increase the population of steady and dedicated devotees who are
satisfied and happy in their devotional service and thus supportive of ISKCON
and its management. Therefore it is in your interests to arrange this social
structure.

Visvadeva: Should we have a plan to achieve some specific thing in one year
and another thing in two years and reach the final goal in ten years?

Harikesa Swami: Certainly we must develop a plan, but in the beginning we
simply have to talk about it and become convinced. If you are convinced and
others are also convinced, then things can happen very quickly. Then there is
no problem. We will make a ten year plan later on, but today we are just
planting the seeds of the idea in the heads of our managers. Let us see how it
will grow. There is nothing wrong with moving gradually.

Visvadeva: I remember, perhaps it was ten years ago, we had of seminar about
varnasrama dharma with our regional secretary and after six months nothing
happened.

Harikesa Swami: You have to make it happen. I'm talking to the leaders. Who is
in this room? The leaders are in this room. It's for you. You have to make it
happen. If you don't make it happen it won't happen. I can talk all day and
all night until I am blue in the face, but nothing is going to happen unless
you make it happen. You have to make it happen and if it doesn't happen, you
have no one to blame but yourselves. You have to talk about it amongst
yourselves. I think you should transcribe everything that has been said here
today and study it and learn it. Talk about it with others. Try to make it
happen. Have a seminar amongst yourselves. Talk about your realizations. I'm
not the only one who can speak about these things. Anybody can. It's common
sense.

Arjuna: But for example we may bring a Ph.D. in chemistry and a music teacher
and a nurse to the farm, but they will have no engagement there according to
what they would like to do and they could not earn their money with that
either. So they would have to...

Harikesa Swami: That's not necessarily true. Let's say your Ph.D. is looking
for spiritual life and a spiritual community. Let's say he doesn't really care
so much about his material position in society, but is more inclined to
spiritual life. He can go out every day and work and come back at night. Some
day maybe there will be a lot of kids who want to study music. The music
teacher can also find engagement in the school there if there is ever a school
there. We have many problems in Germany with schools, but that's another
point. The rule in Almvik is that you don't have to work on the Almvik land,
you can work anywhere you want, do anything you want as long as you pay the
fees and follow the four regulative principles. Everyone is helping to serve
the Deities, with money, goods or whatever. You don't have to work in Almvik,
you can work anywhere you want.

Devotee: What is the means of support if the man takes sannyasa and the wife
is at home?

Harikesa Swami: Then the eldest child has to support the mother.

Devotee: Should there not be some insurance system or something like this
among the devotees?

Harikesa Swami: Maybe.

Devotee: Isn't there a need?

Harikesa Swami: Maybe it's possible to have insurance, but, as we said in the
beginning, the best insurance comes from the family. Joint families don't have
these problems; everyone is taken care of.

Sairisi: If the grhasthas with children move into such communities like
Abentheuer and the farm, who will run the city centers? There will be always a
lot a change when grhasthas get children and then move to the projects with
schools.

Harikesa Swami: True, but city centers are OK like that. Change-overs are not
a problem because the city centers are more straightforward to manage.

Sairisi: But isn't it important that there is somebody who stays for a long
time?

Harikesa Swami: Then they shouldn't be grhasthas with children who will suffer
in the atmosphere of the city. Can you imagine being a child growing up in
Heidelberg center? The city centers should be run by grhasthas who don't have
children.

Sairisi: So they have to decide whether they want to have children or run a
center.

Harikesa Swami: No. One does not have to make long term decisions like that
for one can develop his life gradually. You can run the preaching center for a
few years and if you later want to have children, you can, and then move to a
community so the children can grow up in an nice environment together with
other children. If you are going to have children, you also have to think how
to take care of them, right? But it doesn't matter if one who is in the city
center changes his mind later on, we can make adjustments, it's not a problem.
I didn't say that now all grhasthas with children must live here or there. I
didn't say that; but it is best for the children. The parents should be
thinking about that.

Devotee: Should the preaching centers cooperate together or is it better that
they first maintain their own places.

Harikesa Swami: They should cooperate together but take care of themselves as
individual centers; but as far as the congregational preaching is concerned
there should be national organization. We created a national preaching
ministry yesterday, you are a member.

Visvadeva: You mentioned that the ksatriyas and the managers should take care
of the brahmanas. As far as sannyasis and spiritual masters are concerned that
is pretty obvious, but there are also others in this category. Which kind of
protection should our structure give them?

Harikesa Swami: Prasadam, a place to sleep, clothes to wear, medical
facilities and service all the time. Everybody should be always engaged. The
temple managers must be to make sure everybody is always engaged. Not that
somebody stops serving and says, "Now you take care of me." Taking care
includes seeing that they are engaged fully according to their capacities.
Such properly engaged devotees should be respected and appreciated. Respect
and appreciation of devotees is something which is generally lacking in ISKCON
and something which is desperately needed by all devotees. Who can live
without self respect and the appreciation of his peers? At least in some way a
devotee should feel this love.

Visvadeva: Because in varnasrama dharma system the brahmacaris were also taken
care of.

Harikesa Swami: That is an asrama situation. You are talking about
renunciates. They should be taken care of by the grhasthas. Grhasthas should
give donation for the asramas which are associated with the temple. Either the
asrama is associated with the temple or they live in the forest on the roots
and berries. If the renunciates are associated with the temple, which is our
system, the grhasthas should donate for their maintenance. It is also all
right that the brahmacaris who are older go out and collect for their
maintenance and the maintenance of the temple. In any case, the vaisyas
especially should donate to the temple for its maintenance.

Diviratha: You spoke about this possibility of devotees' living on the farms
and going outside for work but having to follow four regulative principles. Is
this also possible to be applied to nama-hatta or preaching centers? Or how
far can this go?

Harikesa Swami: I never mentioned farms. He mentioned farm. I always said
village communities.

Diviratha: You mentioned Almvik, one can live there but...

Harikesa Swami: Almvik is a village community first, second a farm.

Diviratha: Oh. I see. It applies to the village communities.

Harikesa Swami: Village communities. Yes.

Sacinandana Swami: Can one keep the four rules and regulations without
chanting 16 rounds? I heard 16 rounds is not required. Is it possible?

Harikesa Swami: For those who live in the mode of goodness, it is quite
possible to follow the four regulative principles.

Sacinandana Swami: But mostly they are coming from the mode of ignorance.

Harikesa Swami: Therefore naturally they will be chanting 16 rounds to come to
the point of following the four regulative principles.

Sacinandana Swami: So it goes together.

Harikesa Swami: Yes. Naturally it goes together, but the actual rule I have
instituted is four regulative principles. Someone may not be chanting rounds
but he may be following the principles. I know some older gurukula graduates
who are in that condition and still working within ISKCON. We try to encourage
them, but it's difficult with some of these who have been mistreated.

Arcana: I have still one question about this grhastha council, because I tried
to bring it up sometimes but it was not possible because ...

Harikesa Swami: Yes. If you take one grhastha from Flensburg and one grhastha
from Jandelsbrunn and one grhastha from Freiburg and another grhastha from
Berlin, you cannot have an effective council. It's impossible. You've got to
have them all from the same local area. Perhaps Koln, Abentheuer, Wiesbaden,
Heidelberg and Viernheim. That might work, because it's close enough that they
can get together on short notice.

Arcana: The question has to do with the great distance between idealism and
realism. We try to take advice from the sastra, but sometimes I see that
married couples are not even treating each other nicely. Would you recommend
also some education, or some taking advice from outside of the sastra?

Harikesa Swami: Maybe there are some books in the mode of goodness that have
been written by religious people about such subject matters. Maybe you can get
some help there. Actually, if one has half a brain, one can figure it out. How
to be nice to each other? Do you think an advanced education is required to be
nice to each other?

Arcana: Sometimes.

Harikesa Swami: Then you have problem.

Arcana: But the sastra is always very...

Harikesa Swami: I'm not talking about sastra. I'm talking about common sense.
I didn't mention sastra. You can figure it out yourself how to be nice to each
other.

Arcana: Because there are so many expectations...

Harikesa Swami: Ah, that's a sociological principle -- false expectations.
Before they got married, they didn't understand what they were getting into.
They had their heads in the clouds. They just got married, thought everything
will be perfect, but instead life became hell. False expectations. You must
have real expectations. Therefore before somebody gets married he should go
and interview other grhasthas and ask them what their life is like and then
get expectations from that.

Visvadeva: But could one arrange that? We see many cases of devotees' marrying
too early and then the whole life suddenly moves in different direction. It's
a problem. Should we have a kind of national grhastha council, and whoever
wants to marry should get the approval of council? Is that a reasonable thing?

Harikesa Swami: Maybe you can do that. It's not the greatest. It's totally
unheard of in varnasrama dharma. It's a new speculation, but you can try and
see what happens. My suggestion that a candidate for marriage interview other
grhasthas before he jumps into that asrama is a valid one. In fact, these
interviews could be compiled and given to prospective householders to temper
their ignorance and create proper expectations. Entering the household asrama
with proper expectations can help solidify the marriage and avoid
disappointment.

Visvadeva: In the beginning the spiritual masters took care of the marriages,
then the temple presidents, but nowadays more or less everyone is doing his
own thing.

Harikesa Swami: Do you know why? You tell me.

Visvadeva: Because those who did it before are frustrated with the situation
and don't do it anymore.

Harikesa Swami: Why did they get frustrated? The real reason they got
frustrated was that we helped couples get married who later fell into lust and
fought and got upset with each other, who then blamed their spiritual master,
"You made me get married. You arranged this marriage and it's terrible."
Therefore we stopped doing it.

Visvadeva: I think it's always a kind of compromise as long as we don't have
the family structure because then the parents do...

Harikesa Swami: But Prabhupada also stopped doing it in 1975 in Denver. I was
sitting in the car when he quit. In Denver, Colorado, going from his morning
walk back to the temple. Prabhupada said, "I shall not get involved any longer
in any marriages. If somebody wants to get married, let them arrange the
marriage themselves, live outside and maintain themselves in that way and give
donations to the temple. Let them find their own marriage. I shall not arrange
this any longer." As soon as you create a committee that has to approve all
marriages then you are getting yourself in big trouble. It's going to be the
same thing. As soon as you approve a marriage, you are saying that you think
the marriage will be good. What if it turns out to be a bad marriage? Although
it is not a perfect science nowadays, it helps very much to have a dependable
astrologer do a compatibility study between candidates for marriage who seem
to fit together by all other considerations. You should have dependable
astrologers like Ananta Rupa. Send birth data to him and let him figure it out
if it is a good match. If he says it's OK, then you can think about it. Srila
Prabhupada mentioned in his books that astrology is a good means to double
check the matches made by the matchmakers in the village. Usually the parents
or elders can see what is a good match, but it should be verified. Or if you
are lucky enough that your spiritual master hasn't become fried out yet and he
wants to help you arrange your marriage, he can do that; but later on if you
blame him that's a great offense for it's your failure the marriage didn't
work. If you blame him, it's a great offense. Usually those who blame their
spiritual masters fall down soon.

Sacinandana Swami: Devotees may think that it's beneficial to not fit together
materially, as in the case of Srila Prabhupada. He didn't like his wife, but
it was very good for renunciation.

Harikesa Swami: If you would be in a same situation as Srila Prabhupada, you
would have left your wife after five years. He left the wife after 35 years.
That's the difference. He left when he was over fifty years old, according to
the religious principles. You would not do it. You would get frustrated and
quit after 5 years and leave the kids to take care of themselves.

Sacinandana Swami: What about the idea of having meetings to discuss all the
specific doubts and misgivings the devotees might have? For example assigning
specific roles to different members for the discussion?

Harikesa Swami: Your idea is not bad, but I think the first thing required is
to learn the concept of a complete social structure in totality. One must see
how it works from realization and not just give the concept lip service by
declaring it common sense, as I have heard some of you say today. It may be
common sense but as soon as a problem comes, your common sense most likely
falls apart, for when it is tested by a difficult situation, it becomes too
difficult to handle. To make a social structure work on all platforms, we have
to utilize something higher than common sense. One has to have this vision on
the intellectual platform, and know the basic principles discussed in the
sastra. Then one can tackle the problems one after another. I suggest that we
create a National Ministry for Social Development. Start with this discussion
as the basis. There are definitely many relevant things in Prabhupada's books
and it is a fact that whatever Prabhupada has given us is the best basis for
our discussions. We can also find relevant material in the Mahabharata and the
Manu-samhita. Of course, we have to adjust some of the social elements found
in these literatures according to the present situation, but the principles
are certainly valid. There are other books by great sages on how these things
can work nicely. Try to work with that and try to develop understanding.
Catalog these things, also engage in asking questions and finding answers.
What do you think of that?

Sacinandana Swami: It must be done otherwise it remains a discussion only and
no work is done on it.

Harikesa Swami: We have to transcribe this seminar and everybody should get
the transcription and read it carefully. At the next NC meeting you can talk
about creating that board. It should not be people who are filled with doubts.
It should be the ones who are convinced. The National Council should figure
out. You should advertise this work as well. I think maybe the regular
devotees should read it also -- not just the leaders for it is not good that
all the time the same group of people are doing everything. You can give it
out to the regular devotees, let them read and if you get some good
intelligent people who are convinced, then you can bring them into the
discussions and they can work on it. We should have two or three temple
presidents, and we should have three non-temple presidents.

Sacinandana Swami: Maharaja, I'm getting so enthusiastic because for the first
time we are moving in such a direction that our ISKCON society will become
something endurable. It will take its roots here in Germany. It won't simply
be like a train station where people just pass through. How should the
formation of the board take place?

Harikesa Swami: I'm giving it to the National Council to figure out. That's
exactly the kind of work they should be doing. You should advertise amongst
all the devotees in Germany to find out those who are most interested and
especially it would be nice for those who have some education and who want to
be involved in this development of the social structure in ISKCON.
 
